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XXSASSXX31
03-09-2005, 08:34 PM
This was an interesting discussion brought on indystar.com. Would Dale Davis have gone to the stands? Would he have fought Ben Wallace? I think the answer is to yes to both of these. In the old school days Double D would always defend Reggie and I think Dale is a beast and in the heat of the moment he might. What do other people think about this?

Lord Helmet
03-09-2005, 08:50 PM
I'm tired of talking about the ******* brawl.


Sorry. Just how I feel.
Yeah, I really don't care now. Its over and it ruined our season.....

XXSASSXX31
03-09-2005, 08:57 PM
Yeah, I really don't care now. Its over and it ruined our season.....

It's still an interesting discussion because some people think Ron is the only one who would have done what he did but I think most members of the Pacers prob. would have.

Lord Helmet
03-09-2005, 08:59 PM
It's still an interesting discussion because some people think Ron is the only one who would have done what he did but I think most members of the Pacers prob. would have.
Yeah, well I dunno about Dale, but I guess he could have....

Harmonica
03-09-2005, 09:04 PM
This was an interesting discussion brought on indystar.com. Would Dale Davis have gone to the stands? Would he have fought Ben Wallace? I think the answer is to yes to both of these. In the old school days Double D would always defend Reggie and I think Dale is a beast and in the heat of the moment he might. What do other people think about this?

You keep saying this person or that person would have gone into the stands, that most people would have done the same thing as Ron, as if it's some kind of excuse for his actions. I honestly don't think most people would. Ron has impulse issues. What you also seem to want to overlook is that Ron went after the wrong person. I can't picture any other person than Ron doing what he did. You seem to be trying to mitigate what he did by playing a silly "what if" game. How 'bout if we play another game: Would Charles Manson have gone into the stands? Yeah, I can see that.

XXSASSXX31
03-09-2005, 09:08 PM
You keep saying this person or that person would have gone into the stands, that most people would have done the same thing as Ron, as if it's some kind of excuse for his actions. I honestly don't think most people would. Ron has impulse issues. What you also seem to want to overlook is that Ron went after the wrong person. I can't picture any other person than Ron doing what he did. You seem to be trying to mitigate what he did by playing a silly "what if" game. How 'bout if we play another game: Would Charles Manson have gone into the stands? Yeah, I can see that.

Harmonica,

All I am saying is Ron Artest is being used as a scapegoat because of his past but what is often overlooked is over the past couple seasons he had improved his behavior dramatically and the flagrants and technicals had been much less. Let's not compare oranges with apples though....and all I am saying is respectful Superstars like Tim Duncan and Shaquille O'Neal said in the heat of the moment they would have done the same thing and they surely would not have received a season long suspension.

XXSASSXX31
03-09-2005, 09:10 PM
"Tim Duncan said in an interview on TNT that he would have gone in the stands to help out a teammate in the heat of the moment."

The question is, how long of a suspension would have Duncan received? I say 15-20 games.

XXSASSXX31
03-09-2005, 09:14 PM
That's entirely different than running into the stands to melee random people.



Bah. I don't want to do this again.

Well, in the best case scenario it means he would have done what Stephen Jackson did.

XXSASSXX31
03-09-2005, 09:17 PM
There are no circumstances in which I can see Tim Duncan throwing haymakers at anyone within a 10 foot radius of him 7 rows up into the stands. None.

I disagree and Shaquille O'Neal said he would along a bunch of different NBA Stars. I wish I could somehow compile the list of NBA Players who said they would have acted in a similar way. Does anyone have it and if so can they post it?!?!

efx
03-09-2005, 09:20 PM
Saying things is one thing. Doing is another. The players stick up for each other in front of the media but that's no real indication as to what would play out should they have got themselves into that situation.

XXSASSXX31
03-09-2005, 09:22 PM
I don't mean to get too controversial and I am indeed not racist but I was reading this quote by 50 cent which obviously is not my role model but he said "You can take the black out of the ghetto, but not the ghetto out of the black", and if this is something inappropriate just delete it, but I am not generalizing all black people because I love black people to be honest, but the reason why some Pacer fans do not realize and understand what happened is because of the innercity culture which our players grew up in which is basically not to take ***** from people without responding in a similar way. I don't mean to offend anyone and I do not want to turn this into a "Race" argument but it is a valid point I want to make. People like Stephen Jackson have been shot at for god's sake, he said that himself so you have to understand the environment he was raised in.

XXSASSXX31
03-09-2005, 09:24 PM
Saying things is one thing. Doing is another. The players stick up for each other in front of the media but that's no real indication as to what would play out should they have got themselves into that situation.

Btown, Shaq and others have said they would have done what Ron Artest and Stephen Jackson did...once again to my last post about the culture they grew up in....and same to the post by EFX, why don't you think that's a possibility? Nothing like this had ever happened before so I would disagree on your notion.

efx
03-09-2005, 09:28 PM
I live smackdown in Harlem and I've lived in Sweden. I've pretty much seen all the extremes both people-wise and how they live and act socially.

I think the 50 cent quote is retarded. I know many people from the ghetto who do not conform to the "thug" ideal. Fact is, most people I see don't. It really comes across as a stupid sterotype. Are there exceptions? Sure. There was the 14 year old who in broad daylight put an automatic at my forehead and took my ipod last x-mas.

But I also encounterd thug violence from white, blond swedes where I grew up up so I refuse to believe that just because you're from a certain place it means you have to act that way.

I don't give a **** about anyones enviroment. Basic common sense exists around us all and if we choose to ignore it it's our own damn fault and not something that other people should "understand" or have compassion for.

XXSASSXX31
03-09-2005, 09:30 PM
Those players said they would do what Fred Jones, David Harrison, and Rasheed Wallace were trying to do.

None of them would ever do what Ron Artest did, and Stephen Jackson quickly resorted to.


One more thing, Fred Jones said he often time regrets not doing more.

MSA2CF
03-09-2005, 09:30 PM
Whether or not it is liked by some, The Incident will never go away; people will always talk about it. Whether or not one chooses to partake in the discussion is up to he or she. These types of subjects relating to The Incident are sure to come up every so often, although to a lesser degree as time progresses.

PacerSteelerChick
03-09-2005, 09:32 PM
yeah i agree with Pacercolt2425.......it totally screwed up our season and im kinda over it i mean not totally but i dont want to talk about it

XXSASSXX31
03-09-2005, 09:34 PM
I live smackdown in Harlem and I've lived in Sweden. I've pretty much seen all the extremes both people-wise and how they live and act socially.

I think the 50 cent quote is retarded. I know many people from the ghetto who do not conform to the "thug" ideal. Fact is, most people I see don't. It really comes across as a stupid sterotype. Are there exceptions? Sure. There was the 14 year old who in broad daylight put an automatic at my forehead and took my ipod last x-mas.

But I also encounterd thug violence from white, blond swedes where I grew up up so I refuse to believe that just because you're from a certain place it means you have to act that way.

I don't give a **** about anyones enviroment. Basic common sense exists around us all and if we choose to ignore it it's our own damn fault and not something that other people should "understand" or have compassion for.

EFX, Stephen Jackson is not a thug. The way he is, does not make him a gangster or a thug and it does not mean he has to have a gun to shoot someone. He has gone through a lot in his life and he has been in situations which he may have been shot at but his goal in life was to move out of the inner city which he has done. The one thing though, he can never change the person he is and by being the person he is, Stephen is keeping it "real" and he's keeping it "hood". It's just his personality and characteristic and you can not change a person's personality no matter where they live. Stephen Jackson is a good person and he is not a thug but he can't forget where he came from. If something like 11/19 happened obviously he won't act like he did again but Stephen himself has said he doesn't regret what he did and "someone had to stand up for the team".

XXSASSXX31
03-09-2005, 09:35 PM
Whether or not it is liked by some, The Incident will never go away; people will always talk about it. Whether or not one chooses to partake in the discussion is up to he or she. These types of subjects relating to The Incident are sure to come up every so often, although to a lesser degree as time progresses.

Exactly...I wish Ron would have fought Wallace but he was trying to be the better man to stay away from the situation and once he was hit by a cup he just went off and I agree he did act on an impulse...but the incident has ruined our season and it is something we can not shy away from.

XXSASSXX31
03-09-2005, 09:36 PM
No. Fred said that his instinct told him he should have done more than he did when he was sucker-punched. But you know what? He actually thought before reacting. And he said he knows he did the right thing. As a "man", he wanted to retaliate. But as a "human" and "professional", he said he knows he did the right thing.

Maybe he has made numerous comments on it but what I remember hearing him say was he sometimes regrets not being there for Ron and Stephen and doing more....but whatever he said the situation is over.

efx
03-09-2005, 09:38 PM
I never said he was a thug.

My point is that there's never an excuse to use a certain background as a reason to fight. Doing what he is doing he should have been more responsible.

I don't care where he comes from. It's never an excuse.

Kstat
03-09-2005, 09:40 PM
:lurk:

XXSASSXX31
03-09-2005, 09:40 PM
I never said he was a thug.

My point is that there's never an excuse to use a certain background as a reason to fight. Doing what he is doing he should have been more responsible.

I don't care where he comes from. It's never an excuse.

If it is an excuse or not, it is reality.

XXSASSXX31
03-09-2005, 09:41 PM
What's lost in all of this is that Ron Artest will have played in more games this season than Bender, despite getting himself suspended for the LAST 73 GAMES.

I am going to give Bender one last season next year to prove himself, but if he does not....just don't resign him. How many more years left in his contract?

MagicRat
03-09-2005, 09:41 PM
The question is moot, because no way would Ben Wallace have retaliated against DD like he did against Ron.

And if he had, I'm sure Dale would've handled business with Ben on the court.....

efx
03-09-2005, 09:41 PM
Sure it's reality. It happened didn't it?

But he was in the wrong for doing so.
I'm done with this thread.

I'm gonna go keep it "hood".

Hicks
03-09-2005, 09:41 PM
The question is moot, because no way would Ben Wallace have retaliated against DD like he did against Ron.

And if he had, I'm sure Dale would've handled business with Ben on the court.....

Damn straight.

XXSASSXX31
03-09-2005, 09:42 PM
The question is moot, because no way would Ben Wallace have retaliated against DD like he did against Ron.

And if he had, I'm sure Dale would've handled business with Ben on the court.....

What I mean is, if Dale Davis was on the team during the 11/19 incident, would he have attacked Ben Wallace to defend Ron Artest....and also would he have gone into the stands?

XXSASSXX31
03-09-2005, 09:42 PM
2 years.

2 years including this yeaR?

Hicks
03-09-2005, 09:43 PM
He might have fought Wallace, and he might have gone into the stands in the same capacity as Rasheed Wallace, rather than Ron or Stephen.

MagicRat
03-09-2005, 09:50 PM
What I mean is, if Dale Davis was on the team during the 11/19 incident, would he have attacked Ben Wallace to defend Ron Artest....and also would he have gone into the stands?

He would've stepped in, definately. Attacked. Probably not.

Go into the stands? To pull Artest out. Yes. To fight. No.

My thought is that if Dale had been on the team at the time, it wouldn't have happened at all. If Dale had been here the last few years, maybe he would've taught Ron how to be a true warrior instead of a TruWarier. Taught him how to be tough, not just act tough. And if you're tough, you don't charge into the stands........

Kstat
03-09-2005, 09:51 PM
He would've stepped in, definately. Attacked. Probably not.

Go into the stands? To pull Artest out. Yes. To fight. No.

My thought is that if Dale had been on the team at the time, it wouldn't have happened at all. If Dale had been here the last few years, maybe he would've taught Ron how to be a true warrior instead of a TruWarier. Taught him how to be tough, not just act tough. And if you're tough, don't charge into the stands........

Probably the best post I've read all day.

XXSASSXX31
03-09-2005, 09:52 PM
He would've stepped in, definately. Attacked. Probably not.

Go into the stands? To pull Artest out. Yes. To fight. No.

My thought is that if Dale had been on the team at the time, it wouldn't have happened at all. If Dale had been here the last few years, maybe he would've taught Ron how to be a true warrior instead of a TruWarier. Taught him how to be tough, not just act tough. And if you're tough, you don't charge into the stands........

What basis do you use to say Dale would not have done what Stephen did?

MagicRat
03-09-2005, 10:18 PM
What basis do you use to say Dale would not have done what Stephen did?


I don't really have any basis....:whoknows:

I do know that Dale is 9-10 years older than Stephen and doesn't seem to be as hot tempered.

If I run that scene through my head, but replace Stephen with Dale, Dale's yanking Ron out of there by the back of the jersey.

But who really knows?

Arcadian
03-09-2005, 11:23 PM
I have never seen Dale lift his shirt while talking trash to someone "hoping" they would do something. I think it is safe to say that is not the only thing the two would do differently. Of the 14 Pacers on the floor that night only two went after fans in the stands. That would mean to me that most people would not act the same way and that you would have the burden of proof to convience me otherwise that any individual would act in the same foolish manner as Ron and Steven.

Ron and Steven screwed up. Coming up with hypothetical circumstances will not change that.

3ptmiller
03-09-2005, 11:27 PM
This was an interesting discussion brought on indystar.com. Would Dale Davis have gone to the stands? Would he have fought Ben Wallace? I think the answer is to yes to both of these. In the old school days Double D would always defend Reggie and I think Dale is a beast and in the heat of the moment he might. What do other people think about this?

oh yes he would

Hicks
03-10-2005, 12:12 AM
I agree with vapacersfan.

Kstat
03-10-2005, 12:15 AM
i'll third it.

3ptmiller
03-10-2005, 12:20 AM
:lurk:

everybody get down!!!! :laugh:

Jermaniac
03-10-2005, 12:23 AM
Dale wouldnt have ran in the stands to fight, Dale would have got Ron out of there, but if it was Dale who hit Ben and Ben pushed him in the face Dale would have done his thing and fought Ben, man that would be a nice boxing match. Ben Wallaces vs Dale Davis.

Jermaniac
03-10-2005, 12:25 AM
Its sad that in today society (Im 19 years old, Ill speak for my generation) its considered cool to be "hood" and "thug"

That all Im saying, Im going to leave this alone. I agree with this 100%, I bet there was thousand's of kids who became Pacers fans that night because our players where "gangsta".

XXSASSXX31
03-10-2005, 12:31 AM
Dale wouldnt have ran in the stands to fight, Dale would have got Ron out of there, but if it was Dale who hit Ben and Ben pushed him in the face Dale would have done his thing and fought Ben, man that would be a nice boxing match. Ben Wallaces vs Dale Davis.

#1, Ben Wallace wouldn't dare shove Dale. Davis would have destroyed him and Ron Artest's dad was a gold glove boxer and Ron is really big and I really think he would have beaten the hell out of Ben Wallace if he had snapped like he did to go to the crowd. I think Dale Davis would have acted in the same capacity of Stephen Jackson and he would have smacked the fan who threw a cup at Ron Artest's face (the 2nd fan in the stands). This is all speculation and we obviously do not know, but one thing for sure, Ronnie wasn't scared of Wallace; he just snapped after trying to control his emotions after a cup was thrown at his face.

canyoufeelit
03-10-2005, 12:32 AM
Without reading the thread, no, he wouldn't have gone into the stands because he's not a *******ed retard like Artest has proven to be time and time again. I can't name 2 players that would go into the stands after fans like Artest and Jackson did, I probably could name a few that would go to help a teammate ala Fred Jones, Sheed, etc. though.

XXSASSXX31
03-10-2005, 12:33 AM
I agree with this 100%, I bet there was thousand's of kids who became Pacers fans that night because our players where "gangsta".

Yup. Probably after the aftermath of the brawl but since our record went south they jumped off the bandwagon. Once we have all our players and are on our way to a title they will jump back on the bandwagon.

XXSASSXX31
03-10-2005, 12:35 AM
Without reading the thread, no, he wouldn't have gone into the stands because he's not a *******ed retard like Artest has proven to be time and time again. I can't name 2 players that would go into the stands after fans like Artest and Jackson did, I probably could name a few that would go to help a teammate ala Fred Jones, Sheed, etc. though.

Once again, Ron Artest is not a "*******ed retard". Respected NBA Stars like Shaquille O'Neal, Tim Duncan, and so on have said they would have acted in a very similar way as Artest and Jackson. Jackson went to help out a teammate, but he rightfully hit that punk fun who threw a full cup of alcohol in Ron Artest's face. Fred Jones have said numerous times he sometimes regrets not doing more to be their with his boys.

Remember, Ron Artest will not do something like this again but something in this nature had never occured before in the history of the NBA so it was a situation that the players had not rehearsed for or been "trained" for by the NBA.

Kstat
03-10-2005, 12:39 AM
I wonder if Dale would want want any of my :lurk:......

I swear its like the entire forum just jumped back in time three months.....

canyoufeelit
03-10-2005, 12:41 AM
Once again, Ron Artest is not a "*******ed retard". Respected NBA Stars like Shaquille O'Neal, Tim Duncan, and so on have said they would have acted in a very similar way as Artest and Jackson. Jackson went to help out a teammate, but he rightfully hit that punk fun who threw a full cup of alcohol in Ron Artest's face. Fred Jones have said numerous times he sometimes regrets not doing more to be their with his boys.

Remember, Ron Artest will not do something like this again but something in this nature had never occured before in the history of the NBA so it was a situation that the players had not rehearsed for or been "trained" for by the NBA.

Keep telling yourself that. You're setting yourself up for another huge letdown. There better not be a next time - because it means Artest's career.

XXSASSXX31
03-10-2005, 12:43 AM
Keep telling yourself that. You're setting yourself up for another huge letdown. There better not be a next time - because it means Artest's career.

What letdown? We have seen what kind of a team we have without Ron. Ron is our key to an NBA Championship. Imagine a lineup of O'Neal-D.D.-JAX-Ron-Tinsley

Jermaniac
03-10-2005, 12:48 AM
I agree with Canyoufeelit, I love Ron and would want him to stay a Pacer for the rest of his career but if something close to what happend in Detroit happens again it might mean that Ron is done in the NBA forever.

XXSASSXX31
03-10-2005, 12:49 AM
I agree with Canyoufeelit, I love Ron and would want him to stay a Pacer for the rest of his career but if something close to what happend in Detroit happens again it might mean that Ron is done in the NBA forever.

Nothing like that will ever happen, there is not even a chance that it will.

Jermaniac
03-10-2005, 12:51 AM
Nothing like that will ever happen, there is not even a chance that it will. How do you know? I defended Ron all the time in the off season when people where talking about trading him saying that his bad stuff is behind him and that he wont have any problems this year. First its reported he fought with Jermaine, got suspended 2 games for asking for time off and then the Brawl.
You never know with Ron,anything could happen.

canyoufeelit
03-10-2005, 12:52 AM
If it happened in the first place, and this person has a history of being stupid in the heat of the moment such as Ron Artest does, you better believe there's a chance. There's no "might be the end of his career" - he's coming off a 73 game suspension for assault and battery on 2 fans - you gotta expect the NBA will have a zero-tolerance policy with him. If he screws up again, he's done in this league.

XXSASSXX31
03-10-2005, 01:00 AM
If it happened in the first place, and this person has a history of being stupid in the heat of the moment such as Ron Artest does, you better believe there's a chance. There's no "might be the end of his career" - he's coming off a 73 game suspension for assault and battery on 2 fans - you gotta expect the NBA will have a zero-tolerance policy with him. If he screws up again, he's done in this league.

Just to respond to Jermaniac first. The reason Ron will not do anything like he did because he was suspended for a whole season and fined nearly 5 million dollars. Take away from the game of basketball, he needs money to survive so surely nothing in the magnititude of what happened on 11/19 will happen. The occasional flagrant or technical will happen, but it will be kept on the court. Remember as I said before, 11/19 was an unfortunate incident which none of our players had ever prepared for or had experienced.

Ron Artest does not have the history of being stupid. BTW, you should watch your mouth, aren't you a Pistons fan btw? It is true Ron had a season where he led the league in suspensions and flagrants but over the last couple seasons he had dramatically improved his behavior which is often time ignored. Also, it is currently a 73 game suspension but there is still a chance the Commissioner will reduce his suspension.

Actually, he is not coming off a suspension for assault and battery of two fans. Get your facts straight, he was not charged for hitting the fan on the court. Your own prosecutor ruled that was self defense on Ron's part and the only assault he was charged for was for holding down the fan in the crowd, he did not even punch him! Give me a break!

As long as Ron keeps his behavior on the court (this includes any type of fighting, flagrants, etc.) he will not be kicked out of this league. If Ron attacks a fan, then he will be kicked out of the league but Ron already knows this and a 5 million dollar fine and a season long suspension assures me he wants to remain in the NBA to make a living and to win a championship so I am 99% confident nothing like this "off the court" behavior will happen again.

ChicagoJ
03-10-2005, 10:42 AM
What a stupid question. I'm glad I didn't log on after church last night.

Harddrive7
03-10-2005, 10:54 AM
I wonder if Dale would want want any of my :lurk:......

I swear its like the entire forum just jumped back in time three months.....


I believe that's because XXSAXXX or whatever hasn't been on here for 3 months. Probably the dumbest thread I've seen for awhile and I've started some pretty dumb ones in my time here.

shags
03-10-2005, 11:30 AM
I believe that's because XXSAXXX or whatever hasn't been on here for 3 months. Probably the dumbest thread I've seen for awhile and I've started some pretty dumb ones in my time here.

I was just thinking the same thing. It's no coincidence. And the Tim Duncan statement is the grossest misinterpretation of someone's comments I can remember on any message board.

That said, :lurk:

XXSASSXX31
03-10-2005, 12:23 PM
I was just thinking the same thing. It's no coincidence. And the Tim Duncan statement is the grossest misinterpretation of someone's comments I can remember on any message board.

That said, :lurk:

LOL. :D The haters are out full force once again...it's either those who don't want to discuss the issue and avoid it because they have shown clear and utter hatred for Ron Artest and they do not like how Pacer fans are united around Ron Artest and support him on here or they have allied with Piston fans who they so utterly respect :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

Give me a god damn break, this was not even a topic I started; this was from the Indystar forums and it was a very interesting discussion and I brought it here. You can try to discredit the argument by saying "I started it" or "XXSASSXX31" started it but that argument really has no merit and it makes yourself look ridiculus and shallow. These type of arguments are very legit questions that must be raised.

One more thing, if you don't like this discussion, don't read it and move on! This topic has obviously shown interest on two forums so haters.....move on.

Harddrive7
03-10-2005, 12:31 PM
LOL. :D The haters are out full force once again...it's either those who don't want to discuss the issue and avoid it because they have shown clear and utter hatred for Ron Artest and they do not like how Pacer fans are united around Ron Artest and support him on here or they have allied with Piston fans who they so utterly respect :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

Give me a god damn break, this was not even a topic I started; this was from the Indystar forums and it was a very interesting discussion and I brought it here. You can try to discredit the argument by saying "I started it" or "XXSASSXX31" started it but that argument really has no merit and it makes yourself look ridiculus and shallow. These type of arguments are very legit questions that must be raised.


Ok I'll bite, why is this a legit thread? DD wasn't on the team period. This adds nothing to the forum just as my saying this.

The reason people don't want to discuss this anymore is because it's totally played out. NO ONE CARES ANYMORE. There's a reason why that thread was over at Indystar because that was the place for it.

I know that you've been away from here for awhile but try to move on with the rest of us. It's over.

XXSASSXX31
03-10-2005, 12:42 PM
Ok I'll bite, why is this a legit thread? DD wasn't on the team period. This adds nothing to the forum just as my saying this.

The reason people don't want to discuss this anymore is because it's totally played out. NO ONE CARES ANYMORE. There's a reason why that thread was over at Indystar because that was the place for it.

I know that you've been away from here for awhile but try to move on with the rest of us. It's over.

As MSA2CF said, it will never be over. The brawl issue will be a part of us Pacer fans forever and we will discuss it for a long long time. It has affected our season and it is legitimate and interesting discussion for us to have. If people do not want to discuss this on here, you don't have to....but people have shown enough interest on this thread for this discussion. You may not like it, but it does not mean it is not an interesting discussion which other people may enjoy and may not be sick and tired of. For those who don't like it, simply don't read it.

You're right. Dale Davis wasn't on the team when the brawl happened but so many people on here along as I have a lot of respect for Dale Davis and we have always know what a warrior he is but the reason this argument is a valid discussion because some of the haters believe that Ron Artest and Stephen Jackson are the only ones who would have behaved the way they did on 11/19 but that simply is not true. I think a majority of NBA Players in the heat of a moment playing with their biggest rivals and if they were assaulted by having something thrown in their face, would have acted the same way because something like 11/19 had not ever happened before and they were not trained to prepare for such a situation from the NBA or their coaching staff. NBA STars like Tim Duncan and Shaquille O'Neal, as well as Latrell Sprewell and others have admitted this as well. Double D always had Reggie's back as well as his teammates and i'm sure he would have stood with his teammates and showed loyalty like Stephen Jackson and rest of his teammates did on that unfortunate day on November 19 which has ruined our season because of punk Piston fans and lack of security.

The big issue is if Dale Davis has been involved, some of the haters who are calling for Ron's head would have supported him and would not have called for a season long suspension or a banishment to our team.

One more thing...if no one was interested in any one of my discussions they simply would not visit them. Look at the "views" part of this thread before you actually look at the content and you will see this thread along with some other ones are the most read upon threads.

Harmonica
03-10-2005, 12:57 PM
Some of the haters believe that Ron Artest and Stephen Jackson are the only ones who would have behaved the way they did on 11/19 but that simply is not true.

Um, they were the only players that evening that behaved that way. 14 other Pacers players did not. The numbers refute your argument, bud.

shags
03-10-2005, 12:58 PM
"Tim Duncan said in an interview on TNT that he would have gone in the stands to help out a teammate in the heat of the moment."


I've got to come back to this, because this Tim Duncan thing is getting out of control.

Sassan, what this is saying is that he would have went to help a teammate. That's what David Harrison did, that's what Eddie Gill did, and that's what Fred Jones did.

That's NOT what Stephen Jackson did, and that's sure as hell not, IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM, what Ron Artest did.

Stop comparing the two. It's apples and oranges what the first 3 did and what the latter 2 did.

XXSASSXX31
03-10-2005, 01:01 PM
Um, they were the only players that evening that behaved that way. 14 other Pacers players did not. The numbers refute your argument, bud.

Not really Harmonica. J.O. tried to go to the stands alongside Tinsley and were held back. By the time our other players got into the stands, the fight in the stands pretty much died down. It happened too quick for any of the others to do a thing. Stephen went to defend his teammate and to go after him and he only swung on that punk fan (which is justified) because he threw a full cup of beer at Ron's face.

The Pacer teammates stood together and the numbers do not refute my argument because Ron was the one who got attacked first off, not the others but they did go to protect their teammate. As I said, most NBA Players would have the same thing as it would be their natural impulse when they had never been trained for such a situation. J.O. did fight on the court....and so did A.J. and Harrison.

XXSASSXX31
03-10-2005, 01:06 PM
I've got to come back to this, because this Tim Duncan thing is getting out of control.

Sassan, what this is saying is that he would have went to help a teammate. That's what David Harrison did, that's what Eddie Gill did, and that's what Fred Jones did.

That's NOT what Stephen Jackson did, and that's sure as hell not, IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM, what Ron Artest did.

Stop comparing the two. It's apples and oranges what the first 3 did and what the latter 2 did.

The Tim Duncan thing is not getting out of control at all. I saw the interview on TNT and Tim Duncan was strongly implying he would have done a very similar action in what Ron Artest and Stephen Jackson did.

You Piston fans try to come on a Pacer board and use your pro-Piston homarage and justify what your trashy fellow fans did and you try to shift responsibility among them to our players. Stephen Jackson went to defend his teammate but after his teammate had a full cup of alcohol thrown at his face, he defended him. I would have done the same thing and if you were a true teammate and friend, you would have done the same thing as well.

I wish I had a list and compilation of quotes from NBA Players around the league after the brawl and as I said, a lot of players came to the support of Artest and Jack which include Shaquille O'Neal as well. Shaq said he would have punched the fan, Charles Barkley did, and so did Latrell Sprewell too.

So give me a break, both you and me know from that interview what Duncan was implying.

Suaveness
03-10-2005, 01:06 PM
I wonder if Dale would want want any of my :lurk:......

I swear its like the entire forum just jumped back in time three months.....

Well, you know with all the these threads, along with your JONeals and Reggiemiller39393484 threads, you have plenty to occupy your time. I mean, if you want REAL discussions, rats is the place for you :devil:

Harmonica
03-10-2005, 01:08 PM
As I said, most NBA Players would have the same thing as it would be their natural impulse when they had never been trained for such a situation.

You have absolutely nothing to back this up except your own misguided perception of right and wrong.

XXSASSXX31
03-10-2005, 01:14 PM
You have absolutely nothing to back this up except your own misguided perception of right and wrong.

Not really, I have heard numerous NBA Stars and former greats such as Charles Barkley say such comments. I rather agree with their arguments when their lives have been basketball than some haters who obviously do not know as much.

ChicagoJ
03-10-2005, 01:26 PM
You want to talk about the brawl, but you don't want anyone to disagree with you or you call them "haters". :unimpress

I just wish the Pacers would've suspended Ron for the entire season, instead of two games, when he quit on them and got into a fight with our superstar player. Or asked to take time off to promote the CD. Whatever version you want to believe on that is fine with me. Then he wouldn't have done his part in sparking the brawl, bringing the crippling suspensions onto his team/ teammates. And just like we beat Minnesota on the road without him, we would've beaten Detroit that night, and we still would've been able to trade him for somebody with a pulse, and that's better than what he's putting us through.

If that happened, then we'd never have to go through this. And all the discussions. And MSA2CF is right, as long as he's on the Pacers we're going to be subject to everyone reminding of us of the awful things Ron did that night. But we really don't need to be reminded constantly by somebody that's allegedly on our side.

How many fights have there been throughout NBA history? How many fans in Philly, Detroit, Sacremento or even, embarassingly, Indianapolis have thrown stuff at players before? The answer to each of those questions is "a lot". In Chicago, the Bears fans throw beer on thier own quarterback.

Sure, there were extreme circumstances that night. But there was also a guy involved with a history of "snapping" in similar situations. Those extreme circumstances don't excuse what he did and there is absolutely no evidence that any other player would've reacted the same. This was, primarily, a "Ron Artest" thing.

There's a reason the headline in the Chicago paper - you know, where Ron used to play - the Sunday after the brawl said [paraphrasing], "Ticking Timebomb Finally Explodes." Its been no secret, even prior to joining the Pacers, that he was fully capable of this magnitude of disruption. Its extremely naive/ simple to believe that this punishment alone was sufficient "to teach him a lesson" since no punishment he's ever endured before actually made a permanent difference. Sure he'll never do the exact same thing again but look at his history, he's an expert at finding new ways to be destructive.

Let's be realistic here, a four game suspension for making obscene gestures to the Miami crowd was a more outlandish punishment than this one, and he's been caught flipping off refs/ crowds a few times since then - as evidenced by some avatars on PD.

The only people that really want to keep talking about this issue are the ones trying to justify making a martyr out of someone that doesn't deserve martrydom. And they have to keep talking about the topic because their flawed logic fails to confirm their points.

Harmonica
03-10-2005, 02:09 PM
Beautifully stated, Jay. But alas, I don't think it'll make one bit of difference with some people, no matter how logical it is.

Pistoner
03-10-2005, 03:59 PM
You want to talk about the brawl, but you don't want anyone to disagree with you or you call them "haters". :unimpress

I just wish the Pacers would've suspended Ron for the entire season, instead of two games, .................................................. ...............................
The only people that really want to keep talking about this issue are the ones trying to justify making a martyr out of someone that doesn't deserve martrydom. And they have to keep talking about the topic because their flawed logic fails to confirm their points.

The best post I have seen on this issue ever. For the record, I think the suspension was too harsh, but I agree with your points.

XXSASSXX31
03-10-2005, 05:49 PM
You want to talk about the brawl, but you don't want anyone to disagree with you or you call them "haters". :unimpress

I just wish the Pacers would've suspended Ron for the entire season, instead of two games, when he quit on them and got into a fight with our superstar player. Or asked to take time off to promote the CD. Whatever version you want to believe on that is fine with me. Then he wouldn't have done his part in sparking the brawl, bringing the crippling suspensions onto his team/ teammates. And just like we beat Minnesota on the road without him, we would've beaten Detroit that night, and we still would've been able to trade him for somebody with a pulse, and that's better than what he's putting us through.

If that happened, then we'd never have to go through this. And all the discussions. And MSA2CF is right, as long as he's on the Pacers we're going to be subject to everyone reminding of us of the awful things Ron did that night. But we really don't need to be reminded constantly by somebody that's allegedly on our side.

How many fights have there been throughout NBA history? How many fans in Philly, Detroit, Sacremento or even, embarassingly, Indianapolis have thrown stuff at players before? The answer to each of those questions is "a lot". In Chicago, the Bears fans throw beer on thier own quarterback.

Sure, there were extreme circumstances that night. But there was also a guy involved with a history of "snapping" in similar situations. Those extreme circumstances don't excuse what he did and there is absolutely no evidence that any other player would've reacted the same. This was, primarily, a "Ron Artest" thing.

There's a reason the headline in the Chicago paper - you know, where Ron used to play - the Sunday after the brawl said [paraphrasing], "Ticking Timebomb Finally Explodes." Its been no secret, even prior to joining the Pacers, that he was fully capable of this magnitude of disruption. Its extremely naive/ simple to believe that this punishment alone was sufficient "to teach him a lesson" since no punishment he's ever endured before actually made a permanent difference. Sure he'll never do the exact same thing again but look at his history, he's an expert at finding new ways to be destructive.

Let's be realistic here, a four game suspension for making obscene gestures to the Miami crowd was a more outlandish punishment than this one, and he's been caught flipping off refs/ crowds a few times since then - as evidenced by some avatars on PD.

The only people that really want to keep talking about this issue are the ones trying to justify making a martyr out of someone that doesn't deserve martrydom. And they have to keep talking about the topic because their flawed logic fails to confirm their points.

Ladies and Gentleman, this is an extreme form of hateritis which requires extreme forms of medication.

I don't know what to say about this thread. The only thing I will say is I don't give a damn what happened in football. In the NBA, the fans are up and close to the players and the players can hear them on the court so it is a different environment. I can also say, an event like 11/19 had never happened before in NBA History so our players were not rehearsed for such a situation. If a cup with acohol was thrown at Stephen Jackson, Jermaine O'Neal, or anyone, they would have reacted in a very similar way.

Some people with hateritis would rather the Pacers not be competitive and win an NBA Championship that win one with Ronnie. He claims we would have beaten Detroit without Ron just like we did in "Minnesota". This season has shown Minnesota has had a horrible year, and we have seen the importance of Ron Artest to this team by the way we have played this season. Artest is as important to this team as Jermaine O'Neal and is a type of player that can me MVP in this league.

It is not about disagreeing with me, but I will call out those haters when I see one, case closed. The haters also tend to discount the dramatic improvement in Ron's behavior. Any thing else he may have done was not really warranted for a season long suspension, especially since he is such an amazing player. Ron dictates our defense and raises it to one of the top 2-3 in the league. He shuts down the opponents star player while being able to put 24/night easily with not much effort. I love reading your posts Jay, because it is hilarious and another thing it is funny is how much you enjoy Piston fans and have allied with them.

XXSASSXX31
03-10-2005, 05:55 PM
The best post I have seen on this issue ever. For the record, I think the suspension was too harsh, but I agree with your points.

Just a point to make how all three Piston fans on this board support everything Jay has posted...isn't it funny that not many Pacer fans support his view but every single Piston fan does?!?!? Wait, who ruined our season? :confused: :confused: :confused: :censored:

ChicagoJ
03-10-2005, 05:56 PM
:laugh:

And as a hater, its my "calling" to point out when a fool is attempting to turn an even bigger fool into a martyr.

Its all good. Its not like I didn't know this was coming when I wrote that one...

ChicagoJ
03-10-2005, 06:00 PM
Wait, who ruined our season? :confused: :confused: :confused: :censored:

Ron Artest did.

But you fail to recogize that he ruined our season a week before the brawl, behind the scenes, when he "quit" on them.

I'm just glad Stern gave him the punishment that the team was too weak to give him on thier own.

This team advertised "One Goal". What bull:censored:. Ron wasn't on-board from the get-go.

XXSASSXX31
03-10-2005, 06:01 PM
This is one of the main reasons you didn't last here very long last time. Every single thread degenerates into a debate about who's the best fan, and why everyone that doesn't think Ron Artest is the Second Coming is a doushe who loves playing snuggle bunnies with Piston fans.

Jay is just as much of a fan as anyone here. He contributes for more to the team monetarily than all but a few posters on here.

For someone with hateritis, supporting a team that much is a heck of a hypocrisy.

You can not like Ron Artest btownpacer, I am not saying I am a bigger Pacer fan than you. You are a good person alongside some of those who do not like Ronnie, but Jay takes it to an extreme. I just find it very interesting those who have shown support for his views have been 3 Piston fans. Why not make that a point for everyone to see?

Jay also singles out Ron Artest every single time. This board is 90% pro-Artest and you can criticize anyone you want, and I am not saying he is not a Pacer fan; but I have the right to call him a hater because I think that is what he is. I am not debating who is a bigger Pacer fan or not and that is not what the discussions will be about....but when I see a hater, I will let him know and will let the board know.

Harmonica
03-10-2005, 06:02 PM
The haters also tend to discount the dramatic improvement in Ron's behavior.

Oh, well, since you know him personally and know firsthand that he's made dramatic improvements since the brawl, I concede.

Harmonica
03-10-2005, 06:06 PM
I am not debating who is a bigger Pacer fan or not and that is not what the discussions will be about....but when I see a hater, I will let him know and will let the board know.

Well there ya go, everyone, the board's conscience has spoken.

XXSASSXX31
03-10-2005, 06:06 PM
Ron Artest did.

But you fail to recogize that he ruined our season a week before the brawl, behind the scenes, when he "quit" on them.

I'm just glad Stern gave him the punishment that the team was too weak to give him on thier own.

This team advertised "One Goal". What bull:censored:. Ron wasn't on-board from the get-go.

Btownpacer, I don't want this thread to turn ugly and turn into a debate into a pro-Pacer anti-Pacer thread but I must respond to the foolishness of what Jay just stated and started.

I don't think Ron is a martyr, but I know the importance Ron brings to our defense and to our offense and we can not win a championship with him. Your brain fails to realize that even after the type of season we have had.

Second, this Jay blames Artest 100% for the brawl which none of us Pacer fans do. The responsibility should have been shared and Piston fans and security are more to blame than Ron. Ron did get attacked first after all.

Now, you are telling me Jay is not a hater? This guy defends Stern's obvious overexcessive suspension of Ron Artest which has decimated our franchise and our team. Jay doesn't mind our season has been ruined and Reggie Miller will probably retire without a ring...Jay doesn't mind the horrid season we have had when we were the favorites to win a title...Jay the hater thinks the suspensions were justified or "were not enough". How can I call Jay a Pacer fan when our team has suffered so much throughout the year, and no one...I mean no one in the Pacer brass or the Pacer team think Ron's suspensions could be justified. Tinsley recently had #91 on his shoes...and the suspensions and the brawl have made the team closer.

Ron Artest wants nothing more than to win an NBA Championship and once he returns to our team he will do just that...but when I read Jay's post, it's like reading Piston fans posts...he should go just move to Detroit and get season tickets for the Pistons.

ChicagoJ
03-10-2005, 06:08 PM
Sassan's right.

I "hate" (not literally, but whatever) anybody that contributes to the Pacers not winning a championship. Ewing, Jordan, Kid-obe, Pat Riley and Phil Jackson, etc. It just so happens to be painfully obvious that Ron hurts the Pacers more from within than even thier fiercest opponents have. Even more than Isiah's coaching (and if you want to my real venom, look there).

XXSASSXX31
03-10-2005, 06:10 PM
Sassan's right.

I "hate" (not literally, but whatever) anybody that contributes to the Pacers not winning a championship. Ewing, Jordan, Kid-obe, Pat Riley and Phil Jackson, etc. It just so happens to be painfully obvious that Ron hurts the Pacers more from within than even thier fiercest opponents have. Even more than Isiah's coaching (and if you want to my real venom, look there).

Actually, David Stern is the one that contributed to he Pacers not winning a championship alongside some punk Piston fans. Not Ron Artest. Without Ron, we have absolutely no chance of a title. Hasn't this season showed that?!?!?!? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

ChicagoJ
03-10-2005, 06:13 PM
Yep. I think David Stern should also have suspended all of those fans for the rest of the season, too.

Seriously, however, there are numerous places on here where I've said the Pistons organazation should've been fined between $5 and $50 million. If you're going to state my position for me, get it right.