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View Full Version : Solid win last night vs. the Jazz



Peck
03-09-2005, 03:40 AM
Yeah it got a little scary down towards the end & I sure would have liked to have seen the offense step up a little more at the beginning of the 4th, but at the end of the day we come home with a W & a 2-2 split out of the west.

Did anybody honestly think after J.O. went down in Denver we would have won 2 of the next 3?

Lots of players to talk about & I think I'll start with Reggie.

It's official to me as of now. Reggie could still have scored 16-18 ppg game this season. He has deferred way to much to J.O. I understand his reasoning & maybe he thinks in the long run the team will be better for it. However, IMO, it has hurt in the short run.

Reggie was great last night. Not just because he was hitting some shots, but because he was actively looking at shots. The Jazz couldn't just sag off of him & weak defend the post (not that we have one) but he was very aggressive & I even thought he was solid on defense. You can tell that Reggie loves running people through the gauntlet of Davis & Foster. There were times Bell looked like a pinball bouncing in there & one time he got flattened.

Reggie isn't what he was but I still think there is some gas left in the tank for a final push to the playoffs.

A.J. First & formost I want to throw out a "God bless you buddy" to Mike Wells of the star. Did you read the notebook of todays star? In it he points out that A.J. is upset he didn't start & even interviewed him about his feelings on the matter. In that one section we had more player/team honesty than we have seen in years (if ever) from the star. We kept saying over & over for the past two years that not everything was shangri la behind the doors in the locker room but you had to read about it from the N.Y. media or the Min. media to find out about it. That's not a slam at any one reporter, but just my sincere thanks for the change of pace. Ok, back to Johnson. He was a mixed bag of nuts last night. There were times I was pulling out my hair with some of the crappy passes he threw, but at the end of the day he had 9 assist & some solid defense along the way. I would like to see what Fred can do in a couple of more games, but it's hard to argue against the fact that as as a backup pg A.J. is solid. I just have a feeling whoever (between Fred & A.J.) we choose they are going to be the pg. for the majority of the rest of the season.

Dale. Feel free to skip this part if you don't like my Dale blathering. He is just rock solid. He is a special player because he is so good defensively that he can change a game from that side of the floor. He also shares the same trait with Reggie that the bigger the game the bigger the moment the better he is. He saved the game again at the end when in the matter of one play he blocked a shot & stole the ball all on the same possesion. I can't tell you how happy I am he is home. He is even better on defense than I remember him being. If you watch him on a switch you will see that the guard he switches to gets forced farther away from the basket than before he started. Dale has the ability to spread himself out on the floor & I have yet to see a guard get around him. What you all think of Ron as a defender I think of Dale as one.

Jeff. Again solid game. I was apprehensive of Dale & Jeff together because I didn't know how well they would do on offense, but so far the other players have been able to adjust & compensate. It's funny that they both grabbed 10 rebounds because they do it in such differant ways, but the advantage to that is that we have all of the rebounds covered as we once again outrebounded the opposition.

Jax was on fire. He is Jalen Rose with better defense at times, although I think Jalen can get off his shot a little better in trafic. When he is on he is a damn dynamo & hard to stop.

Not all was well though.

The Hulk. I'm starting to get concerned. Is it the rookie wall? Is it an "I don't care" attitude? Is he really this dumb? I have no real answer for this but what was once looking like a real suprising rookie season has just deteriorated into a real last pick in the first round rookie season. Man I wish he never would have been hit in the jaw. The team should force him to move in with Dale in the off-season & be his valet or something. Because he should learn everything about defense & rebounding from him. Then when he is done with that he should move with J.O. to learn about offense. I still believe & I am still thrilled with his future prospects, but damn this is hard to watch at times.

Cro. Uninspired basketball at it's best. At least he hit his freethrows (kids learn to hit your freethrows because as Austin has shown you can make a living if you are really really good at it)

In all though the team played well & Carlisle really has taken to much heat for people saying that he is not willing to adjust or be creative.

We've got a shot here in the next couple of weeks to not only put some distance between us & the 76ers we could move up a notch or two with some solid play.

waterjater
03-09-2005, 04:06 AM
Peck,

I whole heartedly agree on Reggie. I wish he'd bring that game even when JO's in there. We would be very tough with him, JO, Jax, Tins and frankly Dale as threats on the floor.

Maybe having Dale back will bring out the best in Reggie. The screens he sets are pretty amazing!

Water

Unclebuck
03-09-2005, 08:09 AM
I wanted so bad to start a thread right after the game last night, about how Dale Davis was the difference in the game. And he was the reason more so than any other Pacers player that the Pacers won the game. Whenever Dale went out of the game the Pacers defense fell apart. The difference was shocking.

Peck, I agree with you 100% on Dale, he is a better defender than I remember, and I remember him being a great defender, although he is not flashy.

Whenever Dale was out especially early in the 4th quarter the Jazz were scoring easily inside then as soon as Dale came back in the Jazz had to settle for outside shots. Why the Warriors did not play him more makes me wonder what their coaching staff was smoking.


I don't think Dale has lost anything in the past 4 years, he looks as good as ever. Can't wait to see Dale and J.O together. Pacers better sign Dale for next season.

The effect he has on the Pacers is remarkable, the Pacers coaches must agree, you can tell because they always bring him back into the game earlier than the "regular rotations" would warrant.

Need to also mention that when Jeff went out of the game last night it was not pretty either, but not as noticeable as when Dale went out.

I must admit I have not been as mad at an individual player this whole season than I was last night when Cro came in midway through the 4th quarter and gave up an offensive rebound on a missed free throw that lead to a 3 pointer and a one point Pacers lead. I wanted to kill Cro.

Peck, not sure how you will take this, but seeing Dale Davis on the floor has made me realize several things. The Pacers needed Dale or a player like Dale much more than I realized. It is not just that they needed a big physical guy, Pollard and DH are big physical guys, but they either don't know how to play the NBA game or in Pollard's case he is no more than a 10 minute player.

The next two comments might surprise you Peck. 1) Dale has made me appreciate Cro's game even less. 2) Pacers need Dale on the floor even when J.O comes back and if that means Jeff has to play significantly fewer minutes than that is OK with me

ABADays
03-09-2005, 08:16 AM
I love Dale Davis. Having not seen him over the past few years, it has surprised me the respect he still commands in the post. Even if there is a part of his game that deteriorated (?) - it appears other players are not anxious to head to the basket. The Pacers would be mad not to have him around for another year.

Coach
03-09-2005, 08:29 AM
It's official to me as of now. Reggie could still have scored 16-18 ppg game this season. He has deferred way to much to J.O. I understand his reasoning & maybe he thinks in the long run the team will be better for it. However, IMO, it has hurt in the short run.

Reggie was great last night. Not just because he was hitting some shots, but because he was actively looking at shots. The Jazz couldn't just sag off of him & weak defend the post (not that we have one) but he was very aggressive & I even thought he was solid on defense. You can tell that Reggie loves running people through the gauntlet of Davis & Foster. There were times Bell looked like a pinball bouncing in there & one time he got flattened.

Reggie isn't what he was but I still think there is some gas left in the tank for a final push to the playoffs.




Good post all together Peck. But the above quote brings ups the question:
Does Reggie defer himself or is it part of the overall offensive scheme of the Pacers coaching staff for him to defer? I really don't know which it is. I would think that when people come back from the injured list (JO, Tins) Reggie would realize that he is needed (as a shooter not a decoy) for us to contend with Det, and Miami. What are the thoughts of eveyone else on here. Does Reggie defer or is it the offense. (I do not mean this as a post about how great Reggie is or anything like that).

Peck
03-09-2005, 08:33 AM
U.B. you know my thoughts on Dale.

My overwhelming joy has been somewhat mixed to an extent the last day or two with regret. Don't get me wrong, he's home & that is the most important thing.

But I feel cheated. I can remember the arguments like they were yesterday I had with Brichard, Brich, PFFL, Arkman40, Speed & others about how Dale would still be able to function at a decent level 4-5 years later. They all said he would be an old man with little left in the tank. I remember PFFL saying that by 34 Dale would be out of the NBA. I remember saying over & over that Dale always took care of his body & never had knee problems so I felt he could play into his late 30's.

Dale has even been better than I expected on his return. I was hoping for some solid play & good rebounding. But never in my wildest dreams did I figure he would still be the anchor of our defense.

Do you see now what my problem was with our frontcourt defense. Ron Artest, for as good as he is & he is good, cannot defend the post like Dale Davis can. Flip side to that is that Dale could never defend the perimeter like Ron can either.

That's why on the Foster debate I guess I never could see what you were saying because when I consider post defense everybody was compared to Dale & I'm sorry Jeff isn't even a third as good as Dale is. However now that Dale is back I've come to the bigger conclusion. My problem wasn't just with Foster, O'Neal is soft as well.

Foster works with Dale & it suprises me as much as anybody because I never would have thought it would. I guess what disgusts me when he is on the floor with J.O. looks like a solid contribution when he is on the floor with Dale.

In other words Dale Davis has made me think more of Jeff Foster & yes it has also made me think less of Austin Croshere.

I still think the guy has been screwed in some ways by the club over the years, but it's hard to cry for a player making that kind of money. He would be a good guy at a cheaper rate or if he wanted to go somewhere where he could get P.T. I could see it.

But I agree with you, we will see less & less of him this year & I think if they can move him they will this off-season.

Once J.O. comes back it will be interesting to see who does start. My guess is that whether he starts or doesn't start Dale will get the lions share of the min. at the end of the game.

DisplacedKnick
03-09-2005, 08:36 AM
I'm not sure if that was all that solid a win or not. Kind of flawed - and the kind of flawed game that is very positive.

Quick Dale note & question: He did his usual unassuming defense/role player job. Loved it on that pick in the (I think) 2nd quarter where the Jazz player went flying, even though that was partly a flop. Here's my question - Has he lost anything since June of 2000? If he has, I'm not seeing it.

As for the flaw, the team lost their focus in the 2nd quarter and never really got it back offensively until the Jazz woke them up. They started relying too much on SJax - not from the standpoint of his taking the most shots, which was good, but just giving him the ball early in possessions and asking him to create his shots rather than running sets where he's the guy open.

The hopeful part is that even though the offense fell apart, other than a period in the 2nd, the defense held up. That's what wins games on the road and in the playoffs, though you're lucky it was the Jazz and not a decent team.

Gotta say I'm becoming less enthusiastic about Sloan all the time. If he starts Okur chances are they aren't down 33-8 and chances are they win. Borchardt did nothing for them the entire night. And this isn't the first game that's happened. In some situations I'd look at that and say, "Well, their season's lost anyway so he wants to give a young player some minutes." But what's Okur?

The really good coaches adapt their system to their players and it seems more like Sloan's trying to wedge players into his system. The system worked with Malone and AStockton but they aren't around any more. Heck, if JVG can adapt his system, Sloan should be able to. That team would work better with a bit more freedom on offense.

DisplacedKnick
03-09-2005, 08:44 AM
But I feel cheated. I can remember the arguments like they were yesterday I had with Brichard, Brich, PFFL, Arkman40, Speed & others about how Dale would still be able to function at a decent level 4-5 years later. They all said he would be an old man with little left in the tank. I remember PFFL saying that by 34 Dale would be out of the NBA. I remember saying over & over that Dale always took care of his body & never had knee problems so I felt he could play into his late 30's.


I have the same argument with Knick fans re Kurt Thomas. He and Dale look very similar to players who stayed very effective well into their late 30's - folks like Otis Thorpe and Kevin Willis.

These guys keep their conditioning up, they haven't had a lot of injuries and, most importantly, their games rely on physicality and fundamental soundness rather than athleticism. You don't turn into a weenie or a dumbass as you age.

Those aren't the only guys. He's paid too much but some team that's ready to run for the title in the next couple of years needs to get their hands on PJ Brown. He can still board and defend with anyone. If I'm Minnesota, I'm looking at a way to get him to play next to KG. I see no reason why he can't stay at the same level the next two years until his contract's up.

Unclebuck
03-09-2005, 08:51 AM
But I feel cheated. I can remember the arguments like they were yesterday I had with Brichard, Brich, PFFL, Arkman40, Speed & others about how Dale would still be able to function at a decent level 4-5 years later. They all said he would be an old man with little left in the tank. I remember PFFL saying that by 34 Dale would be out of the NBA. I remember saying over & over that Dale always took care of his body & never had knee problems so I felt he could play into his late 30's.


That's why on the Foster debate I guess I never could see what you were saying because when I consider post defense everybody was compared to Dale & I'm sorry Jeff isn't even a third as good as Dale is. However now that Dale is back I've come to the bigger conclusion. My problem wasn't just with Foster, O'Neal is soft as well.

Foster works with Dale & it suprises me as much as anybody because I never would have thought it would. I guess what disgusts me when he is on the floor with J.O. looks like a solid contribution when he is on the floor with Dale.

In other words Dale Davis has made me think more of Jeff Foster & yes it has also made me think less of Austin Croshere.


Once J.O. comes back it will be interesting to see who does start. My guess is that whether he starts or doesn't start Dale will get the lions share of the min. at the end of the game.


My arguments with you about Foster were about his defense as compared to Cro, Brad and J.O. Never in my right mind would I have said that Jeff is a better post defender than Dale.

Before I am critical of J.O. I want to see him paired with Dale.

Question: how do you compare Dale's overall effect on the defensive end with what Brad Miller brought on the defensive end.


Edit: I was not around to read the forum during the post Dale trade debate. Not sure who I would have sided with

Doug
03-09-2005, 09:02 AM
Last night was the first time I've had a chance to really watch a Pacer game since Dale came back.

My feelings are pretty much the same as everybody elses.

I was very, very surprised in that I don't think he as lost a damn thing either.

I'm also shocked by the difference in the team when he's on the floor. While I've always appreciated Dale, I did not expect him to have the impact he's had on overall team "toughness".

IMO, when JO comes back, Dale should still start. Foster is just as effective coming off the bench as he is starting. And Reggie better keep being aggressive. If he is not actively looking for a shot, he shouldn't be out there. If I don't see at least one baseline floater by halftime, bench him. :-)

Strange, but I have more hope for this season right now than I have in a while. IF Tinsley and JO get healthy (that's a big IF, I know), we could make a pretty serious run in the playoffs, even without the nutjob.

grace
03-09-2005, 09:02 AM
I'm not sure if that was all that solid a win or not. Kind of flawed - and the kind of flawed game that is very positive.

As for the flaw, the team lost their focus in the 2nd quarter and never really got it back offensively until the Jazz woke them up. They started relying too much on SJax - not from the standpoint of his taking the most shots, which was good, but just giving him the ball early in possessions and asking him to create his shots rather than running sets where he's the guy open.

The hopeful part is that even though the offense fell apart, other than a period in the 2nd, the defense held up. That's what wins games on the road and in the playoffs, though you're lucky it was the Jazz and not a decent team.

Gotta say I'm becoming less enthusiastic about Sloan all the time. The really good coaches adapt their system to their players and it seems more like Sloan's trying to wedge players into his system. The system worked with Malone and AStockton but they aren't around any more. Heck, if JVG can adapt his system, Sloan should be able to. That team would work better with a bit more freedom on offense.

Lord, I hate it when I agree with you. :(

I can't get too excited about beating a crappy team that's only won something like 20 games this year. Especially since we blew a big lead.

As for Sloan I really don't have an opinion other than to say that dog is probably too old to learn new tricks. Add to the fact that I'm pretty sure his wife died last year. He's probably pretty resistant to any kind of change right now.

Peck
03-09-2005, 09:12 AM
My arguments with you about Foster were about his defense as compared to Cro, Brad and J.O. Never in my right mind would I have said that Jeff is a better post defender than Dale.

Before I am critical of J.O. I want to see him paired with Dale.

Question: how do you compare Dale's overall effect on the defensive end with what Brad Miller brought on the defensive end.

Edit: I was not around to read the forum during the post Dale trade debate. Not sure who I would have sided with

Defensively? Not even close.

But then again I am very biased so you might want to look at it yourself. I just honestly consider & have always considered Dale one of the best post defenders in the NBA?

I don't think Brad was the slouch you made him out to be but no way in my right mind would I compare him to Dale on post defense.

I still think he's a better post defender than Jeff, but I've always said Jeff was better vs. the quicker 4 & 5's.

However if your gonna ask me to pick between Dale & Brad I'm gonna plead the 5th. My heart would rule on this today so I don't make my son :rolleyes: at me I will just not answer that one.

I think I'm ready to admit that I want Artest & Dale in the lineup together.

MagicRat
03-09-2005, 09:31 AM
If you watch him on a switch you will see that the guard he switches to gets forced farther away from the basket than before he started. Dale has the ability to spread himself out on the floor & I have yet to see a guard get around him.


Slick commented during the Denver game that our guys were afraid to guard anybody. They didn't want to get up on anyone for fear that they'd drive around them. I think Dale has helped change that mindset somewhat, both with his help on the guards and his presence in the lane if someone does get beat.

Unclebuck
03-09-2005, 09:35 AM
Assuming the chemistry betwen Jax and Artest could be worked a lineup of

Tinsley
Jackson
Artest
J.O
Dale

With Jeff and Freddie coming off the bench. I dare someone to find a better top 7 on any other team in the whole NBA. That to me is a championship contender without question. Of course that assumes good health and no suspensions.

At the very least I want to see those 7 healthy on on the roster next season and let's see what that team can do.

Ragnar
03-09-2005, 09:39 AM
I know I am just going to sound like the Jamaal Tinsley guy when I say this but Harrison looked better IMO because Jamaal could get him the ball in scoring position. Other than the Orlando game he has not faired as well without Jamaal.

ChicagoJ
03-09-2005, 09:52 AM
I'm gonna disagree with the basic premise.

I thought this game was the whole "live and die by the three-point shot", all wrapped up in two completely disparate halves of a basketball game.

Granted, the fourth quarter was a breath of fresh air for this team, given thier recent struggles and the big blown lead last night. But really, I think right now we're 100% dependent on our shooters being "red hot" and we've got a team full of streaky guys.

Unclebuck
03-09-2005, 09:57 AM
I'm gonna disagree with the basic premise.

I thought this game was the whole "live and die by the three-point shot", all wrapped up in two completely disparate halves of a basketball game.

Granted, the fourth quarter was a breath of fresh air for this team, given thier recent struggles and the big blown lead last night. But really, I think right now we're 100% dependent on our shooters being "red hot" and we've got a team full of streaky guys.



I don't think anyone in their right mind with disagree with that at all.

Peck
03-09-2005, 09:59 AM
Nope won't disagree with the premise at all.

However a win is a win & I'll take 2 wins & 1 loss vs. 3 losses anyday.

I hate the three as much as you guys do, however we have to be realisitic, they are gonna take it. We have to hope they quit taking it so much, but there are just gonna be times when it happens.

ChicagoJ
03-09-2005, 10:04 AM
Nope won't disagree with the premise at all.

However a win is a win & I'll take 2 wins & 1 loss vs. 3 losses anyday.

I hate the three as much as you guys do, however we have to be realisitic, they are gonna take it. We have to hope they quit taking it so much, but there are just gonna be times when it happens.


Agreed. I just see our problems right now as being something bigger/ more fundamental than Dale alone can solve. I think he's been a spark, certainly. And I've enjoyed it. But so was James Jones during the last week of November. I think teams, especially our E.C. foes, will adjust to Dale's presence pretty quickly.

MagicRat
03-09-2005, 10:07 AM
I know I am just going to sound like the Jamaal Tinsley guy when I say this but Harrison looked better IMO because Jamaal could get him the ball in scoring position. Other than the Orlando game he has not faired as well without Jamaal.

The Hulkster looked better back when the refs let him play.........

Peck
03-09-2005, 10:10 AM
Agreed. I just see our problems right now as being something bigger/ more fundamental than Dale alone can solve. I think he's been a spark, certainly. And I've enjoyed it. But so was James Jones during the last week of November. I think teams, especially our E.C. foes, will adjust to Dale's presence pretty quickly.

I don't want to sound like an idiot here, ok to late for that I realize, but I don't think you can adjust to solid inside defense without comprimising your game.

Utah adjusted last night, they took more jumpers.

Dale is on top of all things, a smart player. He does not get by with athlticism alone, although he is athletic.

Now teams will start to try & expose the front court weakness on offense real soon so if that's what you mean I agree.

But I don't think there is anything they can do but try & adjust thier plan of attack on offense & if that is the case then , to me, that can only be a good thing for the Pacers.

Ragnar
03-09-2005, 10:16 AM
They will adjust but Jermaine will be back in 3 games and we will have an offensive presence.

I am one of the biggest Jeff Foster fans but I think Dale should be starting over him when Jermaine gets back. Jeff is a great backup center he is a decent starting center when we have Jamaal, Jermaine and Ron. Its just that right now we dont have any of those guys let alone all three.

Thank God for Stephen Jackson I am so happy he is on this team. He may not be the defender that Ron is but he is a lot better than anyone else we have ever had at the sf other than Ron. (Yes I think he is better than Satan because he makes his man defend him)







I just had a mental flash of Dale being in the post and Ron on the perimiter:drool:

sixthman
03-09-2005, 10:20 AM
Slick commented during the Denver game that our guys were afraid to guard anybody. They didn't want to get up on anyone for fear that they'd drive around them. I think Dale has helped change that mindset somewhat, both with his help on the guards and his presence in the lane if someone does get beat.

No doubt that is true. I believe it was Anthony Johnson who said as much last night on the telecast, talking about what Dale meant to the team. Now the team knows they have someone who will have their back.

A trio of Ron Artest, Dale and JO is a dream front line defensively.

Regarding Dale's fresh legs, we have to remember he hasn't played much this year. Which is a blessing for us.

ABADays
03-09-2005, 10:20 AM
I get a little surprised at reactions to wins and losses sometimes. I guess I don't understand why so many expect for us to hold onto a 25 point lead. We made our run at the very beginning and the very end. Utah made theirs in the middle. It's the NBA game. Seems like if we make a run it's what we should be doing but when the other team does we suck.

The win was solid last night - on the road, stayed together and evened our record. Solid.

ChicagoJ
03-09-2005, 10:30 AM
That's what I'm getting at.

I see teams borrowing from Rick and conceding the OR against us. Let Dale and Jeff clean the glass, but get back, into transition defense, and significantly increase the defensive pressure on the perimeter.

Dale's post defense can be counter-attacked with effective ball-rotations. He'll prevent teams running iso's against us, but that's not really been our achilles heel - JO isn't as rugged of a post defender as Dale but he's historically been no slouch. Dale improves the ruggedness of the defense, which you and I and UB and others all appreciate, but even with Foster, post defense hasn't really been *the* problem for the Pacers this season.

I wonder if teams will try to zone us up a little more - one roaming defender might be able to cover both Jeff and Dale - both are known to have difficulty catching the ball cleanly which allows the defender enough time to recover and still challenge the shot. This would only add defensive pressure to AJ/Fred, Reggie and SJax.

Certainly, on the screen-and-roll, teams will trap (a la Dick Harter) our guards, so even though Dale can set some hellacious picks, I don't see the Pacers using that very much until Jamaal can play.

I guess that's really my point - until Jamaal is healthy enough to run this team again, Dale changes the dynamics of the offense a little bit but not enough.

Unclebuck
03-09-2005, 10:32 AM
Good point about Dale having fresh legs and there is no way he could play this many minutes the whole season. But with a healthy J.O, he wn't have to lay but 25-30 minutes.

Just for an example if the Pacers use Dale, J.o and jef at the two big positions. There are 96 minutes available. J.O could play 40, Dale 30 and Jeff 26. And all the minutes are used up, but you know other players will get at least a few minutes at those positions.

Suaveness
03-09-2005, 11:08 AM
My comments, though not important. I was thinking to myself the whole time in the beginning that Utah was going to catch up. We were making so many three pointers, and I knew it just wasn't going to last. But, what can you do, this is how our team must play. I loved watching Dale and Foster together, it seemed as though they didn't miss a single rebound. I honestly couldn't care which of the two started, they are both fantastic.

However Peck, you said the Pacers could pull ahead against Philly the next few weeks, and I just don't think that is going to happen. Have you seen our schedule? It is brutal. Cleveland, Utah, LAL, NJ twice, San Antonio, Detroit, Chicago, Miami, Washington twice, Cleveland again, Philly and then Miami to close out the season. That scares me a LOT.

Hicks
03-09-2005, 11:11 AM
Good point about Dale having fresh legs and there is no way he could play this many minutes the whole season. But with a healthy J.O, he wn't have to lay but 25-30 minutes.

Just for an example if the Pacers use Dale, J.o and jef at the two big positions. There are 96 minutes available. J.O could play 40, Dale 30 and Jeff 26. And all the minutes are used up, but you know other players will get at least a few minutes at those positions.

I'd say it will/would be something like JO 35 Dale 25 Jeff 26 Scot or David 10.

ReggieMiller8325
03-09-2005, 11:45 AM
This was a great game but very suprising in the 4th quater dale davis was on the boards all night he was the reason why we kept our lead and Aj had a great all around game almost had a triple double with 13 points 9 assist and 7 rebounds.Reggie Miller and Stephen Jacskon anchored the points with 24 and 30 on a combined shooting 18-34 from the field and a combined three point shooting of 6-13 they were the reason why we kept this lead especially miller who scored 6 points in the closing seconds.I don't know how we lost the lead in the 4th quater it was very suprising that that happend a very bad way to show you were giving up on the defense the Pacers better not do that again overall we had a great game this would have been a blowout if the big three was there with Freddy,Stephen and Reggie were there together.

Doug
03-09-2005, 12:12 PM
Any road win against a WC team is a good win, blown lead or not. Too many 3 pointers or not.

The Toxic Avenger
03-09-2005, 02:54 PM
- until Jamaal is healthy enough to run this team again, Dale changes the dynamics of the offense a little bit but not enough.

Well, thats a tough call... IMO, he changes our "Dynamics" more than enough but it will have to change all over again for the playoffs, God willing, or next season or whenever the team is complete. And then Reggie will be gone so it will change again. I just hope that he can become a rock that we can focus on. He is ultra healthy compared to anyone else on the team, minus Reggie, and can be a standard that won't change when others will be injured, or returning from an injury, and the newer talent will be coming off the bench and changing the way they play,hopefully for the better. Considering next year we will have a whole different set of starters compared to the roster a week ago I think he changes everything a whole lot for the better.

"The Dale" :D had 3 steals vs. the lakers and has been one short of his season high rebounds twice since he has come home, once at L.A. and once at Utah. His stats for the three games are quite nice and include, in total, 27 rebounds, 8 assists, 5 steals, 3 Blocks, and 14 pts.

IMO, his presence has allowed for the outside shot more often with less pressure allowing for SJackson and Reggie to go at it. And when the opposition realizes this they can just give it to Dale inside and let him power it in there or at least for the double team or ball movement or something. We are just more confident and intimidating with Dale. Jackson had his season high of 30 and Reggie with 24 vs. utah. Jax was putting up 18's and 19's early in the season But now has an average of 25.4 ppg in March.

Peck, I think you need to focus more on Jackson. I know that he can be streaky but honestly he is a must have right now considering... Anyway I hope that Reggie giving the ball more often will pay off, whether its to JO or whoever. I don't think its a bad thing to do but just as long as we can make it to the playoffs.

waxman
03-09-2005, 04:49 PM
It almost seems like Dale never left.... he just fits in so naturally and seemlessly out there.

He and Foster work very well together oddly enough.

I like the way Dale plays the high pick and roll also,,, he "shows" early and comes from an angle that allows him to cover alot of ground efficiently. All Pacer bigs should play it that way rather than trailing there man up and popping out at the last second.

brichard
03-09-2005, 10:27 PM
Peck,

I think in much of the "discussions" :) we had regarding Dale related to many things. At the core of most of the debates I remember, and I'm not trying to resurrect them here, was that the Pacers finals team had went as far as they were going to go. As awesome as DD was/is as a defender, he was completely overmatched by Shaq. And since that team had numerous good seasons and chances to get their ring, I wasn't son upset by the re-tooling that went on. Your stance with BBall was that you don't dismantle a top 2 team b/c you never know what will happen. I understood that perspective, but just disagreed. The wheels did eventually fall off the Laker bus, but I still think it would have proven too late for that Pacer team to take advantage of it.

JO was a risk, but he had some intriguing prospects. I think we all have to say that JO has played toward the upper level of what we would have expected in the trade. Nobody wanted to lose Dale, but we had to deal somebody of value to get somebody of value. And then there was that whole Dale wanting to leave distraction Whether it was the right or wrong decision is just one of those personal opinion things, and debate likely won't sway decisions either way.

I find myself trying to compare Dale to Artest and I'm not really sure why I'm trying to do that. Hmmm... Anyway, they are very different players. Artest is more of a perimeter hounder and DD is more of a post defender/rebounder. Artest scores and Dale screens. Ron is unpredictable and Dale is as predictable as snow during the first week of basketball sectionals in Indiana.

No matter how much Dale does have left in the tank, it is clear that JO has alot more. And when I looked at Dale's stats, he has steadily declined right about after he left. The million dollar question to me is why? Is it b/c his skills got weaker or b/c he was not being used properly? It is probably a combination of the two, but I tend to think he just meshes better with the Indiana system.

I don't care who was right or wrong, but we can all agree that Dale just looks right in a Pacer uniform. We have missed some of the toughness that he brings to a team. And, the prospect of having a solid perimeter defender in Artest and a post presence with DD... makes the mouth water. As long as we can find some perimeter and mid-range scoring, we are now a championship contender.

Man, that Walsh sure is shrewd to get Dale back, eh Peck? :cool:

3ptmiller
03-09-2005, 10:30 PM
Yes really good game, JAX & REGGIE got hot and hit some clutch shots, i hope they continue to play like this everyday

Peck
03-09-2005, 10:33 PM
Peck,

I think in much of the "discussions" :) we had regarding Dale related to many things. At the core of most of the debates I remember, and I'm not trying to resurrect them here, was that the Pacers finals team had went as far as they were going to go. As awesome as DD was/is as a defender, he was completely overmatched by Shaq. And since that team had numerous good seasons and chances to get their ring, I wasn't son upset by the re-tooling that went on. Your stance with BBall was that you don't dismantle a top 2 team b/c you never know what will happen. I understood that perspective, but just disagreed. The wheels did eventually fall off the Laker bus, but I still think it would have proven too late for that Pacer team to take advantage of it.

JO was a risk, but he had some intriguing prospects. I think we all have to say that JO has played toward the upper level of what we would have expected in the trade. Nobody wanted to lose Dale, but we had to deal somebody of value to get somebody of value. And then there was that whole Dale wanting to leave distraction Whether it was the right or wrong decision is just one of those personal opinion things, and debate likely won't sway decisions either way.

I find myself trying to compare Dale to Artest and I'm not really sure why I'm trying to do that. Hmmm... Anyway, they are very different players. Artest is more of a perimeter hounder and DD is more of a post defender/rebounder. Artest scores and Dale screens. Ron is unpredictable and Dale is as predictable as snow during the first week of basketball sectionals in Indiana.

No matter how much Dale does have left in the tank, it is clear that JO has alot more. And when I looked at Dale's stats, he has steadily declined right about after he left. The million dollar question to me is why? Is it b/c his skills got weaker or b/c he was not being used properly? It is probably a combination of the two, but I tend to think he just meshes better with the Indiana system.

I don't care who was right or wrong, but we can all agree that Dale just looks right in a Pacer uniform. We have missed some of the toughness that he brings to a team. And, the prospect of having a solid perimeter defender in Artest and a post presence with DD... makes the mouth water. As long as we can find some perimeter and mid-range scoring, we are now a championship contender.

Man, that Walsh sure is shrewd to get Dale back, eh Peck? :cool:

Very shrewd indeed. ;)

The one last thing I want to say on the subject is that the one argument I had over & over with people even a couple of years after the trade was that we did not give up nothing & got something in return.

From the day Dale Davis left the franchise to the day he has returned we have not had a solid interior defense with physical play. So we went 5 years without the one thing you need to succeed in the E.C. playoffs IMO.

But like you said, water under the bridge now.

I just regrett that it happened, but I understand that I am going to be the only one who feels that way.

brichard
03-09-2005, 10:48 PM
Very shrewd indeed. ;)

The one last thing I want to say on the subject is that the one argument I had over & over with people even a couple of years after the trade was that we did not give up nothing & got something in return.

From the day Dale Davis left the franchise to the day he has returned we have not had a solid interior defense with physical play. So we went 5 years without the one thing you need to succeed in the E.C. playoffs IMO.




Well, knew we had given up something with Dale. I never really wanted to see him go, it was just a business decision. He had just made the All Star team for the first time, so his popularity was at an all time high.

I miss lots of things from those teams. The commitment to defense is one thing, but I probably miss the "beautiful game" on offense just as much. JO isoloation basketball is just boring and predictable to watch. JT is fun to watch, but he has yet to develop into the maestro that Mark Jacskon was. I'll always miss Woody as well.

Bball
03-10-2005, 01:18 AM
Too bad we couldn't have traded AD for JO. Then we could've kept DD (after he simmered down) and probably not lost a beat in 2000-2001. In any case we wouldn't have wasted AD's trade value nor would we have lost what we lost in DD... and we wouldn't have wasted all this time on Bender. :(

Bball

DisplacedKnick
03-10-2005, 08:06 AM
I just regrett that it happened, but I understand that I am going to be the only one who feels that way.

Not really - though as a non-Pacer fan maybe I don't count. :confused:

I still feel that Pacers team would have made it back to the finals the following year and that, after struggling for ten years and to finally get that close to a title, it was the wrong time to break up the team.

I continue to disagree with people who think there was no way that team could have beat the Lakers the next year - they were 1 point away from having a 3-2 series lead going back to LA.

Granted, the Pacers got a monster talent in JO but have they been back to the finals since? Will they be there this year?

And yeah, I know I'm in the minority in a huge way.

Bball
03-10-2005, 10:08 AM
I agree with DK.

I'd also like to add, to win a championship you have to get to the final game. Unless you are a flash in the pan, there's no accounting for that experience.

-Bball

brichard
03-10-2005, 10:08 AM
Not really - though as a non-Pacer fan maybe I don't count. :confused:

I still feel that Pacers team would have made it back to the finals the following year and that, after struggling for ten years and to finally get that close to a title, it was the wrong time to break up the team.

I continue to disagree with people who think there was no way that team could have beat the Lakers the next year - they were 1 point away from having a 3-2 series lead going back to LA.

Granted, the Pacers got a monster talent in JO but have they been back to the finals since? Will they be there this year?

And yeah, I know I'm in the minority in a huge way.

Well, this is the other dilemna, how do you define "break up the team."

Smits retired.
Jackson signed for crazy money elsewhere.
Davis asked for a trade.

Now of our starting five, 3 wanted to go and 2 were gone. There are those who can criticize that Walsh coulda, shoulda, locked some of those guys in to contracts earlier. I think that is a valid criticism in hindsight. However, based on where they were at the end of the year, there were elements that were out of Walsh's control.

If Walsh brings back Smits and Jax, there would have been just as many people berating Donnie for overspending on "has been" talent as those thinking he was a genius for "preserving the nucleus."

Granted, we could have brought back a big part of that team with Rose, Miller and DD. But it wouldn't have been the same team that went to the finals regardless. I remember that being a very emotional time for me as a fan. We had made the finals, so I don't think I was elated at the prospect of blowing up the team. But after some of the wheels fell off (Smits, Jax) than it just seemed like the thing to do.

Where I will continue to have major differences of opinion is with those who thought the Pacers were close in the series. And by that, I am going beyond the boxscore. Although some thought the Pacers were shafted by the officials, I actually thought they kept the Pacers in some games. And remember the Lakers still handed us our lunch in games without Kobe. Whether it came down to a 1 point or 10 point game, I had no confidence we could have stopped either one of them down the stretch when it mattered.

With the Pacers one year older and the Lakers dynamic duo one year better, I saw us having the chance to be the Utah Jazz or Buffalo Bills. The prospect of that was more painful than re-building for me.

I still say the Pacers best shot at a title was the strike season. We blew it against the Knicks, and we have not had a better shot since in my opinion.

Again, I'm not saying I am right or wrong in my opinion. I just think it is important to look at all the facts when considering thoughts on re-building or not. I know all of you guys remember it, but some of the newbies may not. :) It wasn't a thought of "let's blow this up," it was more "given the circumstances... we may as well finish what has already started."

Unclebuck
03-10-2005, 10:24 AM
Well, this is the other dilemna, how do you define "break up the team."

Smits retired.
Jackson signed for crazy money elsewhere.
Davis asked for a trade.

Now of our starting five, 3 wanted to go and 2 were gone. There are those who can criticize that Walsh coulda, shoulda, locked some of those guys in to contracts earlier. I think that is a valid criticism in hindsight. However, based on where they were at the end of the year, there were elements that were out of Walsh's control.

If Walsh brings back Smits and Jax, there would have been just as many people berating Donnie for overspending on "has been" talent as those thinking he was a genius for "preserving the nucleus."

Granted, we could have brought back a big part of that team with Rose, Miller and DD. But it wouldn't have been the same team that went to the finals regardless. I remember that being a very emotional time for me as a fan. We had made the finals, so I don't think I was elated at the prospect of blowing up the team. But after some of the wheels fell off (Smits, Jax) than it just seemed like the thing to do.

Where I will continue to have major differences of opinion is with those who thought the Pacers were close in the series. And by that, I am going beyond the boxscore. Although some thought the Pacers were shafted by the officials, I actually thought they kept the Pacers in some games. And remember the Lakers still handed us our lunch in games without Kobe. Whether it came down to a 1 point or 10 point game, I had no confidence we could have stopped either one of them down the stretch when it mattered.

With the Pacers one year older and the Lakers dynamic duo one year better, I saw us having the chance to be the Utah Jazz or Buffalo Bills. The prospect of that was more painful than re-building for me.

I still say the Pacers best shot at a title was the strike season. We blew it against the Knicks, and we have not had a better shot since in my opinion.

Again, I'm not saying I am right or wrong in my opinion. I just think it is important to look at all the facts when considering thoughts on re-building or not. I know all of you guys remember it, but some of the newbies may not. :) It wasn't a thought of "let's blow this up," it was more "given the circumstances... we may as well finish what has already started."


Could not AGREE more.

Peck
03-10-2005, 10:50 AM
Needless to say I don't agree with Brichard. However we've been down this road many times before.

Let's just all agree to enjoy Reggie's last few games & the fact that Dale is home.

Nothing would make me more happy than to see the current lineup win a title right now.

That means no Ron, no J.O., no Jamaal & no Bender.

I know it will never happen but to see Reggie & Dale lead the players who fought valiantly after the suspensions to a title would be worth everything I have gone through these past 5 years.

Harmonica
03-10-2005, 11:14 AM
Well, this is the other dilemna, how do you define "break up the team."

Smits retired.
Jackson signed for crazy money elsewhere.
Davis asked for a trade.

Now of our starting five, 3 wanted to go and 2 were gone. There are those who can criticize that Walsh coulda, shoulda, locked some of those guys in to contracts earlier. I think that is a valid criticism in hindsight. However, based on where they were at the end of the year, there were elements that were out of Walsh's control.

If Walsh brings back Smits and Jax, there would have been just as many people berating Donnie for overspending on "has been" talent as those thinking he was a genius for "preserving the nucleus."

Granted, we could have brought back a big part of that team with Rose, Miller and DD. But it wouldn't have been the same team that went to the finals regardless. I remember that being a very emotional time for me as a fan. We had made the finals, so I don't think I was elated at the prospect of blowing up the team. But after some of the wheels fell off (Smits, Jax) than it just seemed like the thing to do.

Where I will continue to have major differences of opinion is with those who thought the Pacers were close in the series. And by that, I am going beyond the boxscore. Although some thought the Pacers were shafted by the officials, I actually thought they kept the Pacers in some games. And remember the Lakers still handed us our lunch in games without Kobe. Whether it came down to a 1 point or 10 point game, I had no confidence we could have stopped either one of them down the stretch when it mattered.

With the Pacers one year older and the Lakers dynamic duo one year better, I saw us having the chance to be the Utah Jazz or Buffalo Bills. The prospect of that was more painful than re-building for me.

I still say the Pacers best shot at a title was the strike season. We blew it against the Knicks, and we have not had a better shot since in my opinion.

Again, I'm not saying I am right or wrong in my opinion. I just think it is important to look at all the facts when considering thoughts on re-building or not. I know all of you guys remember it, but some of the newbies may not. :) It wasn't a thought of "let's blow this up," it was more "given the circumstances... we may as well finish what has already started."

Great post.



Needless to say I don't agree with Brichard.

What's there not to agree with?

Smits did retire.
Jackson did sign for crazy money elsewhere.
Davis did ask for a trade.

Those are pretty much facts. Other than Reggie, that was the nucleus of the finals team.

ChicagoJ
03-10-2005, 11:42 AM
I dunno, I thought Jalen Rose was the best player on that team. In everyone's revisionist/ post-Bird views, he gets discredited around here all the time, but to leave him out of the nucleus discussion altogether is wrong.

He was re-signed for a max contract.

:shrug:

Los Angeles
03-10-2005, 12:20 PM
I dunno, I thought Jalen Rose was the best player on that team. In everyone's revisionist/ post-Bird views, he gets discredited around here all the time, but to leave him out of the nucleus discussion altogether is wrong.

He was re-signed for a max contract.

:shrug:
I always get pissed when folks choose not to remember Jalen Rose. He was one of our two top scorers, with or without defense.

And he played a VERY central role on the only Pacer team to ever make the finals.

But sure, OK, he sucked ... or something :rolleyes: .

Doug
03-10-2005, 12:35 PM
Jalen gets critizised for his defense, or lack thereof. I don't anybody can complain too much about his ability to score, other than he's a bit streaky.

Actually, it's not so much that Jalen couldn't play defense, he just seemed to choose not to. Much like a certain-player-whose-name-I-shall-not-type refused to play offense.

The other significant part about the Jalen trade was there was pretty much nobody else on the roster with any trade value. Ya gotta give something to get something. Jalen wasn't traded because he sucked, he was traded because he didn't.

(I figure if we're revisiting the break-up of the finals team, we might as well revisit Jalen, too. Up next: Which was the better Davis?)

The Toxic Avenger
03-10-2005, 01:58 PM
I'd go for Dale everytime. It always seemed to me that AD just tried to imitate DD, for which I can't blame him. But when he couldn't do it he would just be off. I could never get upset because AD did almost everything right he wasn't as good as DD. He'd post, pick, and get the putback, etc. and when that didn't work he would try outside shots or a drive to the bucket, Not bad strategy, but it just seemed he just wasn't there. I know I got no stats or game references but i'll try to look up the game i'm thinking off and get back.

I'm all for Jalen. At the time I thought he was a loose cannon but that was compared to the Smits, Reggie, and Dale That I knew. And geez after watching a few games with Artest I was really reconsidering the definition of a loose cannon.

brichard
03-10-2005, 02:51 PM
Needless to say I don't agree with Brichard. However we've been down this road many times before.

Let's just all agree to enjoy Reggie's last few games & the fact that Dale is home.

Nothing would make me more happy than to see the current lineup win a title right now.

That means no Ron, no J.O., no Jamaal & no Bender.

I know it will never happen but to see Reggie & Dale lead the players who fought valiantly after the suspensions to a title would be worth everything I have gone through these past 5 years.


We can agree on many things.

1. Dale is back! Hooray!

2. Go Reggie in your last year!

3. Wouldn't it be great if the Pacers won the title this year?

4. Kiss rocks!

:cool:

McKeyFan
03-10-2005, 02:54 PM
I'll make a confession here that may get me into trouble. I stopped watching the Pacers during the playoffs just before the finals with the Lakers. I had been an avid fan from 1993 until then.

The "breakup" of the team got me somewhat interested the next year, but not much. What drove me away from the team was the perimeter game. "Live by the J, die by the J." Reggie, Jax, Jalen, Smits, Mullin, Travis (he would drive some, in fairness), Cro. I was yearning for some offensive movement like we had in the Larry Brown days, but all we got when Bird was coach was, "We didn't put out enough effort." Well, IMO Bird didn't put out enough Xs and Os.

I didn't like to see DD traded. He wasn't really part of the problem since he wasn't relied on for offense. But, of course, he couldn't solve the problem either.

JO was still a work in progress. Definitely an improvement from the "live by the J." days, but not quite there yet. Al's fadeaway did not help matters. The day I really got involved again as a Pacer fan was when we picked up Brad and Artest. All the sudden I saw the inside game I was looking for, more posting up, better percentage shots, and, of course, much better defense.

All that to say, I guess I was quite happy the team got "broken up." It may cast me as not a very loyal fan, but I just had a hard time watching the Larry Bird coached teams after being spoiled with Larry Brown.

I do like Carlisle, which surprises me since he was the offensive mind under Bird. But i guess that has to do with the players handed to him. Although, didn't Larry Brown have most of the same players?

JOneal7
03-10-2005, 02:54 PM
we blew a 25 pt lead to the jazz...sometimes I worry about this clubs defense. We are sooooooooo bad without ron ron.

brichard
03-10-2005, 03:01 PM
This is WAYYYYYYYY of topic, but Jalen and Best were two of my favorite players, and once I found PD I found out how much some people hated them.

but hey, to each his own.........


The synopsis of Travis is that he was a shooting guard in a point guard's body. He could score and play solid defense on the little guys, but he wasn't a strong assist man and was a liability on taller players. The way he pounded the ball in the same spot drew much of the ire of Pacer fans.

Rose was oft maligned for defense, but I had a bigger problem with him than that. Rose pulled a vanishing act every fourth quarter and particularly with the game on the line. He would miss shots, free throws... everything. If you are going to be paid a max contract and you don't play defense, you had better step up and hit some money shots. My fear with JO when he came to the team was that he had some of those Jalen tendencies. However, I do think JO has matured and gotten better with those situations. Rose just never seemed to get comfortable at crunch time.

He hates it, but I still think Jalen is one of those guys who is just a better bench player. He can give you instant offense, and without the pressure of starting he plays better. I also remember once in a galaxy far far away... when he actually did defend number 23 of the Bulls pretty respectably. For whatever reason he decided to stop.

Of the 2 I miss Travis more. He is another one of those guys who seemed to do better in the Pacers system. He just never has gotten on track anywhere else. He hit the big winner at Milwaukee and he took a charge from Shaq... that has to command some respect. However, he was always living in the shadow of Mark Jackson when he was here. Two very different players with different skills to bring to the table.

DisplacedKnick
03-10-2005, 03:03 PM
I dunno, I thought Jalen Rose was the best player on that team. In everyone's revisionist/ post-Bird views, he gets discredited around here all the time, but to leave him out of the nucleus discussion altogether is wrong.

He was re-signed for a max contract.

:shrug:

The Jalen that played in spring 2000 was an excellent player - very tough on offense and gave a lot of effort and was solid on defense.

The Jalen Rose that surfaced when Isiah was the coach wasn't worth squat. I've always blamed Isiah for not holding Jalen accountable, including handing him the PG spot after Travis had shown he'd earned it.

Doug
03-10-2005, 03:10 PM
I don't think Travis has been the same since Shaq screwed up his shoulder.

ChicagoJ
03-10-2005, 03:12 PM
Yeah, IMO, Isiah created the Jalen Rose "scoring monster" that everyone hates, and then he didn't know how to put it back in the box.

In fairness to Jalen, we rarely called on him down the stretch; at crunch time it was still Reggie's team because the fans wouldn't accept the transition that was already in place long before the NBA Finals appearance.

brichard
03-10-2005, 03:16 PM
Yeah, IMO, Isiah created the Jalen Rose "scoring monster" that everyone hates, and then he didn't know how to put it back in the box.

In fairness to Jalen, we rarely called on him down the stretch; at crunch time it was still Reggie's team because the fans wouldn't accept the transition that was already in place long before the NBA Finals appearance.

I disagree. Jalen had become our leading scorer and with the exception of the playoffs, Reggie was trying to pass the torch to Jalen. Jalen could just not deliver. And, it wasn't just last second shots (of which he missed many,) but he would sometimes vanish for the entire 4th quarter. I really think that is why Walsh ended up pulling the trigger on the trade. It became painfully obvious that Jalen just wasn't going to develop into that type of player.

The good news about Rose is that he could score 20 points in one quarter on any given night. But, he could fade away in an instant. A great guy to have on your bench, but not the guy to build your franchise on.

ChicagoJ
03-10-2005, 03:19 PM
At the same age, Reggie was still deferring to Chuck and Detlef during the fourth quarter.

It takes time to move from "bona fide NBA scorer" to clutch performer.

brichard
03-10-2005, 03:29 PM
At the same age, Reggie was still deferring to Chuck and Detlef during the fourth quarter.

It takes time to move from "bona fide NBA scorer" to clutch performer.


Really? Maybe Jalen was younger than I thought, or maybe it took longer than I thought for Reggie to start taking clutch shots. Was Reggie signed to a max contract when he was missing shots in the fourth quarter?

I was hard on Rose b/c of the money. If you get max dollars you need to give max performance. Perhaps he would have developed into that type of guy over time, but I didn't even see glimpses that it would happen. Not all players have that gift, and not all are classified as superstars. Horry is as clutch as you can get, but not necessarily one of the top 2 guys on a team.

Ah, I suppose I'm just re-burning ashes anyway. He's gone and I for one am glad. :) He is a player I don't hope to see returning in a Blue and Gold uniform.

ChicagoJ
03-10-2005, 03:44 PM
Reggie played for five or six years and only attempted a couple of clutch shots.

When Versace put Reggie on the all-star team for the first time, Reggie was scoring 24 ppg and was averaging something like 17 ppg during the first half.

Chuck hit more clutch shots as a rookie than Reggie even attempted for a number of seasons, and after Chuck was traded Detlef was almost always the go-to guy down the stretch.

In hindsight, you're right. Jalen proved to be a guy that could score in bunches but not so well at crunch time. Blame his contract, blame Isiah for setting him up to fail, blame his new-found aversion to defense, etc. But at the end of the Bird era, he was the best player on an NBA Finals team, so if Eddie Jones could get a max contract, it was easy to see why Jalen earned one. He didn't live up to it after he earned it, that's indisputable. But he earned it in the first place, and there are numerous guys in the league that never even earned thier max contracts.

Oh well, I was always a big Jalen Rose fan, but that's not a safe thing to admit around here. And as I said, I moved up here right after the NBA Finals (well, technically, during Game #4) and in my little world, pre-TiVo, I didn't realize just how unpopular he became. :shrug:

Kegboy
03-10-2005, 07:09 PM
...but all we got when Bird was coach was, "We didn't put out enough effort." Well, IMO Bird didn't put out enough Xs and Os.

Exactly.

To everyone who says Bird was a great coach, I wish I had some tapes, like against Chicago in '98, NY in '99, and especially Milwaukee in 2000 where I could show them what an intractable ****up he was at times. Carlisle is like Don Nelson at times compared to what Bird would do, or more correctly, not do.

brichard
03-10-2005, 07:38 PM
Hey Doug you forgot the "I hate Larry Bird as Coach" threads. :cool:

For those who didn't like Larry Bird as a coach, I think you would find an interest in reading a couple of his books. I don't remember the titles, but I read one by Mark Shaw and the other one Larry wrote with help from a biographer. I think they are both upstairs but I am too lazy to get them.

You still may not agree with his philosophy at the end of the day, but you may understand him more. Larry felt like ballgames were won/lost by the players and that coaches tended to muck it up. He carried a staff of 3 coaches while many said he should have many more. He is just a guy that believes in the K.I.S.S. (Keep it simple stupid) principle.

In his book he specifically says he brought on Carlisle b/c he thought he was the best "X's and O's guy" in the business. Fans were upset with him for his lack of emotion, hesitation to call timeouts, and his refusal to veer from his set rotations. He would typically play about an 8 man rotation and that was it.

As with any coach, some players tend to flourish while others suffer. Croshere and Rose blossomed and Smits didn't do so well. At the end of the day I judge coaches on records more than anything else. It's pretty tough to get better than Larry Brown... he's the best out there. But Larry Bird did a pretty darn good job if you look at their record. Many coaches have done alot worse with less talent than he had. I'll always wonder what he would have done with a lesser team, but we'll probablly never know. All I know is that there is one Pacer coach in NBA to get to the finals and his name is Larry Bird.

Unclebuck
03-10-2005, 08:07 PM
Hey Doug you forgot the "I hate Larry Bird as Coach" threads. :cool:

For those who didn't like Larry Bird as a coach, I think you would find an interest in reading a couple of his books. I don't remember the titles, but I read one by Mark Shaw and the other one Larry wrote with help from a biographer. I think they are both upstairs but I am too lazy to get them.

You still may not agree with his philosophy at the end of the day, but you may understand him more. Larry felt like ballgames were won/lost by the players and that coaches tended to muck it up. He carried a staff of 3 coaches while many said he should have many more. He is just a guy that believes in the K.I.S.S. (Keep it simple stupid) principle.

In his book he specifically says he brought on Carlisle b/c he thought he was the best "X's and O's guy" in the business. Fans were upset with him for his lack of emotion, hesitation to call timeouts, and his refusal to veer from his set rotations. He would typically play about an 8 man rotation and that was it.

As with any coach, some players tend to flourish while others suffer. Croshere and Rose blossomed and Smits didn't do so well. At the end of the day I judge coaches on records more than anything else. It's pretty tough to get better than Larry Brown... he's the best out there. But Larry Bird did a pretty darn good job if you look at their record. Many coaches have done alot worse with less talent than he had. I'll always wonder what he would have done with a lesser team, but we'll probablly never know. All I know is that there is one Pacer coach in NBA to get to the finals and his name is Larry Bird.


I read both of those books. The one Bird wrote in first person I read many times.

IMO Bird was an excellent coach. Or let me just say this. The Pacers were very well coached when Bird was the coach. But then I think I look at "coaching" very differently than a lot of poeple. I think 80% of coaching is done at other times besides the 48 minute game.

3ptmiller
03-11-2005, 12:10 PM
Reggie at 1st quarter = holy *******!!! PWERÖLÄ#%`#%?#`?%=`#! !¤`?=)?%= !!!!!!

Hicks
03-11-2005, 12:15 PM
Reggie at 1st quarter = holy *******!!! PWERÖLÄ#%`#%?#`?%=`#! !¤`?=)?%= !!!!!!

:banghead:

:puke:

3ptmiller
03-11-2005, 01:46 PM
:banghead:

:puke:

tihihi

Los Angeles
03-11-2005, 02:04 PM
Reggie at 1st quarter = holy *******!!! PWERÖLÄ#%`#%?#`?%=`#! !¤`?=)?%= !!!!!!
That's it, you're the first to get the treatment from me, and I'm REALLY tolerant.

Los Angeles
03-11-2005, 02:06 PM
This message is hidden because 3ptmiller is on your ignore list.

That's better.

3ptmiller
03-11-2005, 02:14 PM
Its just wicked how people in here dont tolerate humor

Doug
03-11-2005, 02:48 PM
Hey Doug you forgot the "I hate Larry Bird as Coach" threads. :cool:

Looks like we got there anyway. :-)

On the plus side, you could tell time by his substitutions.