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Unclebuck
03-08-2005, 09:40 AM
I think Kravitz is a very good writer. Meaning he is easy to read and is just a good writer. However, as always he only touches the surface of any issue and rarely gets even an inch below the surface.




This was buried in column today about


http://www2.indystar.com/articles/4/227662-6604-045.html

I'm tired of hearing how the poor, poor Indiana Pacers just can't get a break and that it's all the fault of NBA commissioner David Stern and the scales of injustice -- like the Pacers, and team president Larry Bird in particular, didn't know that Ron Artest was a ticking time bomb who needed to be dealt before the beginning of the season.

I'm tired of hearing the word "patience" from the Pacers' front office, like everything will be peachy next season when Artest is back.

Well, tell that to Reggie Miller, who now retires without a ring. Tell that to families who pay $75 a seat to watch James Jones pass to Fred Jones as Jonathan Bender looks on from his familiar seat at the end of the bench.

They knew Artest was trouble waiting to happen. And they didn't have the guts or the insight to make a deal. Now they want you to wait 'til next year, when Artest comes back as Gandhi.

Right.


__________________________________________________ _-


Kravitz acts like the Pacers were offered Shaq for Arterst last summer or that they were offered Lebron for Artest a few weeks ago at the trade deadline.

Unclebuck
03-08-2005, 09:51 AM
You don't think it is a little overwrought.

BillS
03-08-2005, 10:42 AM
To be honest, the only thing that would have been different had we dealt Ron during the offseason would be that we'd not have started as well as we did.

I think even if we have Jackson and O'Neal back for all of those suspended games, we would be in the 5th-6th playoff spot range right now. We would not have gotten anyone for Ron that would have replaced what we lost - not for his salary, that's for sure.

Any idea that "had we just traded Ron this summer we'd be chanmpionship contenders right now" is definitely overwrought. We'd have simply said that this year was not going to be the year, and maybe Reggie would have stayed one more year, but nothing would change other than who we played in the first round.

ChicagoJ
03-08-2005, 10:47 AM
I don't think Kravitz cares about the Pacers, or thier fans.

But I think that distance that he keeps allows him to see through some of the front office's mistakes, the b.s. lines they keep feeding us, the misguided martyrdom.

If Ron's on the Pacers next season, he's still just a disaster waiting to happen. Wouldn't you take a future first rounder just to ensure we never go through another season like this one ever again?

abington
03-08-2005, 10:54 AM
I basically agree with Kravitz. We are in the ultimate no-man's land. Damned without Ronnie, but subject to all his BS with him. The same goes for Bender. We traded Harrington because of Bender. Now we have no Artest, Bender or Harrington. It is a problem and I'm glad Kravitz or somebody in the Indy media is brave enough to address it.

BillS
03-08-2005, 11:00 AM
If Ron's on the Pacers next season, he's still just a disaster waiting to happen. Wouldn't you take a future first rounder just to ensure we never go through another season like this one ever again?

Yeah, another Jon Bender would work out GREAT!

I guess this is part of my personal Pacer's history - I don't think we will ever get a player in the draft who will be an instant franchise player.

Granted it has been a while since we had a lottery pick, but nowadays anything below 10 is practically a second-rounder anyway. And I don't see us getting a top 5 pick without tossing everyone away and rebuilding from scratch. Again.

I don't ever see us getting a number 1 pick. Even if we tanked the entire season. Conspiracy or not, I think that kind of good luck would just not happen to us.

Unclebuck
03-08-2005, 11:00 AM
I don't think Kravitz cares about the Pacers, or thier fans.

But I think that distance that he keeps allows him to see through some of the front office's mistakes, the b.s. lines they keep feeding us, the misguided martyrdom.

If Ron's on the Pacers next season, he's still just a disaster waiting to happen. Wouldn't you take a future first rounder just to ensure we never go through another season like this one ever again?


A future first rounder ?

What like the 15th pick in the year 2008 ?

Yes that would really get everyone excited

Roy Munson
03-08-2005, 11:03 AM
Well, tell that to Reggie Miller, who now retires without a ring. Tell that to families who pay $75 a seat to watch James Jones pass to Fred Jones as Jonathan Bender looks on from his familiar seat at the end of the bench.




Maybe Kravitz hasn't paid much attention to Freddy Jones, but I think I'd rather watch James Jones pass HIM the ball than about 80% of the players in the NBA. He's a pretty exciting player to watch.

ChicagoJ
03-08-2005, 11:12 AM
Its become quite clear that the Pacers are not "one player" away from being a legit championship contender.

Even if they unloaded Ron, as I've suggested, it would still take more moves to rebuild this team around a foundation of JO, Tinsley and Harrison. Would people get excited? Not until they saw the re-made team on the court.

But every day they don't move Ron along *for anything* is just one more day in which they have prolonged the inevitable or subjected us to a repeat of this season. Or, frankly, a repeat of last season in which he waited until the ECFs to crumble under the pressure. Which would you rather have - him teasing you to a 61-win regular season then crumble, or to crumble early? This season has been easier for me because I've grown very detached from the team that I'm usually very passionate about.

This team just wasn't good enough to overcome everything Ron put them through, with his "retirement" that was rejected and then the brawl. They put all thier eggs in the wrong basket, and as many of us expected, it blew up.

I'm already depressed about the possibility Ron returning and repeating all of this again next season. That's the real alternative. There's no quick fix.

heywoode
03-08-2005, 11:19 AM
I think that we are better off with Artest than without him. I hope (BIG emphasis on hope) that he was learned a lesson and will start acting his age. I like most of his quirkiness because 1) he motivates his teammates 2) he scares the bejesus out of the opposing players. You have to admit, not knowing what he will do next is both exhilirating and intimidating......

If we trade him, it better be for a heck of a lot more than a future first rounder. He is just starting to find himself on the offensive end of the floor and I want that intensity on our team.

Not to mention the fact that if we traded him, every time we play his new team, he'd stick it up our @sses for bailing on him.....I would rather use the madness than fight the madness.....!!

I don't think Ron is crazy, but he does make me a little nervous. I'm willing to give him another shot. I think he can be an integral part of what could be the best team in the league next year.

shags
03-08-2005, 11:39 AM
The Pacers are going to look like geniuses or fools when it comes to Ron Artest. And there's really no in between.

DisplacedKnick
03-08-2005, 11:39 AM
Basically, this was Kravitz saying "I told you so." Nothing new.

Of course he's also right.

Harmonica
03-08-2005, 11:42 AM
I'm tired of hearing how the poor, poor Indiana Pacers just can't get a break and that it's all the fault of NBA commissioner David Stern and the scales of injustice -- like the Pacers, and team president Larry Bird in particular, didn't know that Ron Artest was a ticking time bomb who needed to be dealt before the beginning of the season.

I'm tired of hearing the word "patience" from the Pacers' front office, like everything will be peachy next season when Artest is back.

Well, tell that to Reggie Miller, who now retires without a ring. Tell that to families who pay $75 a seat to watch James Jones pass to Fred Jones as Jonathan Bender looks on from his familiar seat at the end of the bench.

They knew Artest was trouble waiting to happen. And they didn't have the guts or the insight to make a deal. Now they want you to wait 'til next year, when Artest comes back as Gandhi.

He's right. And he's wrong. Both Larry and Donnie knew Ron was a time bomb waiting to go off, and they did try to move him in the off-season—both to the Kings for Peja and to Orlando for McGrady. Both were serious attempts to try and get as close to equal value as possible for Ron. Also, management isn't preaching patience. The hand has been dealt and they are simply dealing with it the best they can. It's been a frustrating season for all concerned—fans, players and management. Where Kravitz is horribly misguided is that he tries to write with authority when it comes to what he believes are the thoughts and feelings of management regarding Ron pre and post 11//19.

ChicagoJ
03-08-2005, 12:02 PM
:welcome:

Indyfan
03-08-2005, 12:05 PM
How does Kravitz know we didn't try to trade him last summer? He is quick to point the finger at Bird for keeping Ron, but no one could have predicted the events of 11/19 in Detroit. There are other players in this league who would have reacted the same way...its not just a Ron Artest thing. How was Bird suposed to know this would happen? Was he supposed to dump a top ten player for succumbing to pressure in the playoffs his first year going through it? I think they may have traded him if they could have gotten something close to equal value, but they didn't have any offers worth taking.

Our guys felt threatened and assalted, they reacted without thinking. If Ron knew the penalty for going in the stands would be 73 games, I don't think he would have done it. That is why he didn't fight back against Ben, he knew the punishment for that and wanted to keep himself out of trouble. You can't convince me Ron is afraid of Ben Wallace or anyone else. Is what he did right? NO, but has he been fairly punished? NO WAY. You pay 5 mil in damages for maming or killing someone. No one was even injured. There was no precedent except the 10 game suspension to whoever did it years ago.

The crime is really that Detroit comes out of this looking like an innocent bystander, their fans have been rewarded by seeing their biggest rivals be put through hell this season because of something they instigated and escalated. Ben caused the cup to be thrown, no he didn't consider that when he kept going at Artest just like Artest didn't consider he would be suspended for the rest of the season. It will be a huge injustice if Detroit repeats this year after the part that franchise played on 11/19 without ANY punishment! Sickening! I think Stern is afraid of Davidson and that is the reason Detroit was not even fined for that fiasco.

Kravitz loves to make it all look so simple. I can't stand this kind of reporting. It doesn't go to the depth of the problem and he acts as if we all knew ahead of time this is what Ron would do to us. I don't see how we can give Ron up without finding out if he is changed... He is just too good a player.

indygeezer
03-08-2005, 12:05 PM
Good to see ya around again Harmonica. :buddies:


For the most part I agree with Kravitz, except where mgmnt is concerned. I gotta believe this is eating them up. And I don't believe for one minute that DW doesn't feel for the fans. He's been here too long not to have some loyalty to them and feel for what they are going thru. But he has to put on the good face in order to maintain the team integrity. He has to paint a glowing picture in order to "jack-up" Artest's value or failing again to find a legit trade for him, be able to point to his comments and tell Ron, "see, we're there for ya".
My concern was more that they are/were letting Reggie retire without trying to give him a legit shot. At this point I think they've decided to try to talk him into one more year and failing that, say "It was his choice to retire without that last shot". I think they found they couldn't get a real trade that would get us back to the top and so this is the approach they are having to take. I don't like it, but I'm not the one paid to make decisions.

MagicRat
03-08-2005, 12:06 PM
He's right. And he's wrong. Both Larry and Donnie knew Ron was a time bomb waiting to go off, and they did try to move him in the off-season—both to the Kings for Peja and to Orlando for McGrady. Both were serious attempts to try and get as close to equal value as possible for Ron. Also, management isn't preaching patience. The hand has been dealt and they are simply dealing with it the best they can. It's been a frustrating season for all concerned—fans, players and management. Where Kravitz is horribly misguided is that he tries to write with authority when it comes to what he believes are the thoughts and feelings of management regarding Ron pre and post 11//19.

http://www.vafilm.com/1995/images/once_upon_a_time.gif

able
03-08-2005, 12:30 PM
Ok I just love the way people here talk about Kravitz, if he writest something during his p'break at the local wateringhole they agree with, then he's a spot on columnist who tells'm how it is.
If he writes something during his next watering session that they do not agree with he's the biggest a'hole in the world.

Truth is he is both, but that is an aside.

This is nonsense, nothing else, he can say whatever he wants; it's all opinion, his alone.
If someone agrees with his opinion then that is one thing, to make it then out that he is right is simply being misguided in a lot of ways.

Spot on is Indyfan, there is a lot of blame to go around, the odd 8 out here that blame Ron for it all are just that; the odd 8 out.

Had I been a lawyer in Indy, I sure as hell would have started a class action suit against the commish/nba on his unprecedented (mis)handling of this matter and those season ticket holders would have had a mouth, now they have nothing, don't blame P management for that their hands are tight by the same beast that struck them.

Unclebuck
03-08-2005, 12:30 PM
He's right. And he's wrong. Both Larry and Donnie knew Ron was a time bomb waiting to go off, and they did try to move him in the off-season—both to the Kings for Peja and to Orlando for McGrady. Both were serious attempts to try and get as close to equal value as possible for Ron. Also, management isn't preaching patience. The hand has been dealt and they are simply dealing with it the best they can. It's been a frustrating season for all concerned—fans, players and management. Where Kravitz is horribly misguided is that he tries to write with authority when it comes to what he believes are the thoughts and feelings of management regarding Ron pre and post 11//19.



I Like the new guy Excellent post.

beast23
03-08-2005, 01:15 PM
I Like the new guy Excellent post.Ditto.

Spot on regarding patience and continuing to play the hand they were dealt.

JAY -

I disagree with your leading statement, "Its become quite clear that the Pacers are not "one player" away from being a legit championship contender."

I believe that the Pacers are one healthy, well-behaved Ron Artest from being not just a legit championship contender, but also being one of the front-runners.

IMO, the acquisition of Dale Davis solidifies the paint. You put him with Artest and JO in the frontcourt, along with SJax at SG and Freddie/Tinsley at PG, and we suddenly have a lineup that is damn hard to score against, along with an excellent balance of interior/exterior scoring.

Kravitz *****es about patience, but right now that's about all that the Pacers can do. Be patient, hoping that a day comes before the end of the season that Artest is allowed to return from purgatory.

As far as last summer goes, Kravitz is a nutcase. Either that or he simply didn't pay attention as he was too busy sulking about the impending player strike that was certain to deprive him of his beloved sport of hockey.

The Pacers were looking for deals for both Harrington and Artest. It turned out being simpler to get a deal for Al, so they took that one. Most teams were leary of Artest's rep, yet a couple tried to use that to thier advantage in an attempt to fleece the Pacers.

I find it amusing, no sad actually, that many of the forum keep giving Bender, still an unproven player, one free pass after another, yet want to give up on Artest, who has demonstrated beyond any reasonable doubt that he is one of the top 20 players in the league, and arguably in he top 10.

I think rather than caste him out, that most fans would be screaming to get him the help he needs, so that we can get onto the business of finally winning a championship.

As far as Reggie goes, well, we all have choices. Those that b!tch about the Pacers or a couple of their players can choose not to play for a ticket. Reggie can choose to return and come off the bench next season if he wishes to have a better shot at a ring, assuming Artest is not allowed to play this season.

Suaveness
03-08-2005, 01:18 PM
Kravitz is a moron, has always been a moron, and will always be a moron. He only occasionally writes something worth reading, and this certainly isn't it. As Jay said, he doesn't give a damn about the Pacers nor anyone else in Indiana either. He good articles when the team is doing well, and then bashes them when they aren't. This one is no different.

The Pacers CAN'T get a break. How the hell are they supposed stop people from getting injured, Kravitz? Are you telling me that Jamaal and Jermaine are in poor condition? I don't think so.

And you cannot tell me something of this magnitude was going to happen. We all knew that this kind of incident was going to happen again, but who know it would escalate like this? I'm not going to sit here and blame Ron for what happened that day, because I do not think it was his fault. Between Wallace and the moron who threw that cup, you had to imagine they knew what they were doing. How many people are going to sit there while having things thrown at them? I certainly wouldn't have

As far as patience goes, what the hell are they supposed to do? Break up an injury, suspension riddled team for the hopes they can somehow make the playoffs this year? What is going to happen next year when we screw up? Patience has kept the Pacers in contention every year, and I am completely willing to wait another. Frankly, you cannot go through an incident like this and not change. Ron knows that he cannot screw up again. Ron knows what it is like not being able to play. So give him that chance to prove it.

The team next year will be VERY good. You could tell from the beginning of the year that this team was good enough. I still think they will be that way next year. Yes it is unfortunate that Reggie will retire without a ring, but it isn't the end of the world. We can only move on, and hope that our team can pull through. And we continue to give them all the support we can.

ChicagoJ
03-08-2005, 01:30 PM
Beast,

I'd like to agree with you. Really. But I just don't see it right now.

I wouldn't shed a tear if they blew this team to pieces and started over. Call it bad karma, bad chemistry, an expiriment gone bad, whatever. I just think that last season was as good as this team was gonna be, and they were still better in the regular season than in the playoffs.

I keep teasing at this, and I'm really busy right now so, but I've recently concluded that this team, with or without Ron, is assembled for regular season success, and is very unlikely to ever have any meaningful post-season success. And frankly, without even talking about the loose canon, the three players I like the most are the ones giving me the biggest concerns with that comment (JO, Tinsley, Harrison).

ChicagoJ
03-08-2005, 01:41 PM
-snip-And you cannot tell me something of this magnitude was going to happen.


Now hold on.

Several of us have been predicting *some type of* eruption for a long time. You chose to say

:notlisten

at the time, and that's fine.

But we were right. So don't pretend you weren't warned.

Nobody could've exactly predicted the brawl, just like nobody could've predicted that he'd quit on the team during the first week of the season, and nobody can predict exactly how his meltdowns will manifest themselves. But he will have meltdowns, and they will disrupt the team, just like his meltdown in the ECFs, just like his previous flagrant-foul episodes, just like when Rick benched him for "Conduct Detrimental to Winning", etc.

I have gone out on a limb that the next time he hurls a piece of wieghtlifting equipment across the training room because he's mad at the coach/ management, that it will probably break JO's foot or something.

Really, the things he does are preposterous, but when the pressure is rising, you can predict with a high degree of certainty that Ron will do something disasterous.

Skaut_Ech
03-08-2005, 01:45 PM
He's right. And he's wrong. Both Larry and Donnie knew Ron was a time bomb waiting to go off, and they did try to move him in the off-season—both to the Kings for Peja and to Orlando for McGrady. Both were serious attempts to try and get as close to equal value as possible for Ron. Also, management isn't preaching patience. The hand has been dealt and they are simply dealing with it the best they can. It's been a frustrating season for all concerned—fans, players and management. Where Kravitz is horribly misguided is that he tries to write with authority when it comes to what he believes are the thoughts and feelings of management regarding Ron pre and post 11//19.


Excellent post, BUT, I gotta take issue with a few things. :shrug: :boxer: Bob said I'm tired of hearing the word patience. It makes me wonder if he's saying what he's been told, not media releases. I'd have to think just by the nature of his job, he has some personal contacts in the organization, maybe even the front office. I wonder if he's tried to shake the trees in search of a story and management has tried to stave him off by telling him "patience."

Also, I don't think I find it "horribly misguided" in Kravitz attempt to write with authority on the thoughts and feelins of management. Once again, I have to think the man has a level of behind the doors contacts/insights.

I'm not a Kravitz apologist, but I think it's funny how often columnists are discounted as isolated idiots on high with no contacts with the source about which they write.

For me, I'm reading between the lines a bit. Kravitz might not neccesarily come out and say some things cause that might burn some bridges for future stories and contacts within the organization.

Yeah, it's an I-told-you-so story, but so what? I think it's also a good story. I AM going to give Kravitz some credit for having a bit more insight than a lot of folks think.

I think some of you might want to re-read what Kravitz said about trading Ron. Indyfan wrote "How does Kravitz know we didn't try to trade him last summer? " Point being, Kravitz didn't say we didn't try, he said they didn't have the guts or the insight to make a deal. Trying to do and doing are to distinctly different things.

I agree that there's plenty of blame to go around about what happened (brawl) and no one could have anticipated that, but let me just say, without going into any details (and don't ask), Pacer's management knew/knows Ron has had/has serious anger problems and have tried to kind of look the other way becasue of his skills. Now it's bitten them in the butt and they're trying to wear their Miss America pagent smiles till things blow over.

Now you can say, "what does some poster on a forum know"? About the same as you could about Kravitz's insight. I could be friends with Ron's family. :eek: You never know. Bob could be schtupping Donnie's secretary. :whoknows: Who knows?

There's been a complaint that Kravitz didn't go in depth....but really, given the nationwide media converage of the brawl, is that neccesary. I felt like he just straight up bottom lined it. I got no problem with that.

I guess I'm just defending columnists in general. We like to discount them as idiots and cast off thier writings as just one guy's opinion, and it is, but what if there's more weight behind it than you realize. :eyebrow2:

Bball
03-08-2005, 01:50 PM
I'm wondering how much blame we should put on Ron Artest and how much blame we should put on the team for building it with so much riding on Ron Artest.

IOW... Bender....
...And to a smaller degree... Edwards...

Knowing that Artest could implode or explode at any time, why were we casting aside players to keep Bender on the team.... and why would we use a roster spot for a player who's upside only exists because his downside is overwhelming (Edwards).

This was a team that from the beginning couldn't afford to waste bench spots on players that wouldn't be able to take the court because it should've been known we were in a championship window and had a volatile character we could not exactly trust.... and for better or worse... had made the decision we were going to ride that horse (Artest). Once the decision was made to stick with Artest (whether or not that decision was made for the team by no suitors) then did this team really make the proper moves?

There were some player decisions made that pretty much left us with our eggs in the Ron Artest basket.

And while I am on the subject...
One of the things I've mentioned about these death sentence suspensions has been the problem of forcing other players into extended roles and playing them into the ground. OTOH, maybe part of the blame should go to the team for not looking to spend more of the allocated money (wasn't it 8 mil?) rather than simply get bench fodder for a few games.

And thru all of it, keeping Edwards until he got a guaranteed contract rather than looking elsewhere the moment we knew we had a season long issue with available players.

Not only did the team not build in a safety net but once the bottom fell out and the inevitable happened (in a seemingly worst case scenario) did we really address things properly?

IOW... did management really handle this properly at any point?

...Or are they geniuses for letting the team flounder, learn lessons, and get a good draft pick in the process?

BTW- I like Kravitz' negativity sometimes. It serves as balance to the other stuff we're fed. Maybe he gets some stuff wrong... well so do the handlers of migrainegate.

-Bball

Skaut_Ech
03-08-2005, 01:54 PM
Beast,

I'd like to agree with you. Really. But I just don't see it right now.

I wouldn't shed a tear if they blew this team to pieces and started over. Call it bad karma, bad chemistry, an experiment gone bad, whatever. I just think that last season was as good as this team was gonna be, and they were still better in the regular season than in the playoffs.

I keep teasing at this, and I'm really busy right now so, but I've recently concluded that this team, with or without Ron, is assembled for regular season success, and is very unlikely to ever have any meaningful post-season success. And frankly, without even talking about the loose canon, the three players I like the most are the ones giving me the biggest concerns with that comment (JO, Tinsley, Harrison).

Oh MAN, are you gonna get it!!

And you know what? :iagree:

I don't and haven't thought of this team as a title winning squad. I've always been a Pacer's fan, but I've never been a homer. Your accessment about this being a team assembled for regular season success may be more on the mark than some want to admit. Kinda like the Kings the past few years.

I've wondered for years if this team has the kind of synegistic mesh to win a title. :chin:

And reference your post in reply to suaveness.....dead on!


and BTW.......


Jay, the problem with building "around" Harrison is that most of your players would have to live out of state......




Score:

Btown 1
World 948,182,849

LMAO!! :highfive: :laugh:

Indyfan
03-08-2005, 02:05 PM
IOW... did management really handle this properly to begin with?

...Or are they geniuses for letting the team flounder, learn lessons, and get a good draft pick in the process?

-Bball

Who do you think they should have brought in? Who was available after 11/19 that would make an impact for this team? We lost our 3 best players for extended suspensions, they aren't replaceable with leftovers after the season has started.

No way did mngmt. take this attitude of lets let the team flounder and learn lessons. Everyone hoped they could stay afloat until JO and Jax got back, they went to court to get the suspensions reduced, they did everything possible to put us back in contention. They even signed DD to try and help salvage something out of this season.

I agree Edwards is a stiff, but who were they supposed to get? With our big guys going down so often they needed to have a big guy for backup. I hope we don't get to the point where he is active again this season but it could happen. Its not like they are paying him big bucks to be on th IL.

If they were looking to tank this season they would have given up a long time ago. The excuses are there but they haven't taken them. This is frustrating for everyone from the fans to the owners.

Bball
03-08-2005, 02:45 PM
Who do you think they should have brought in? Who was available after 11/19 that would make an impact for this team? We lost our 3 best players for extended suspensions, they aren't replaceable with leftovers after the season has started.

First, there were player decisions that were made in the last couple of years that we have to consider.

Secondly, I have no idea what was out there as far as 'leftovers'. There are players playing the world over so I'm sure there were choices at various $$ amounts. There were also trades (however unlikely). But the point I was getting at here was asking if we'd been better off taking our lumps with these 'replacement' players as part of the rotation and not over-extending the remaining players. We might've lost the games, but we lost anyway. At this point would we have players less beat down for a stretch run?

We can ask whether if we'd been willing to spend more if the 'leftover' pool would've looked better... if putting Bender on the shelf sooner (rather than pinning ANY hopes on his return) could've changed the thinking.

Edwards barely played even when we had 6 active players. SURELY, someone existed that was more likely to get off the bench. ...Or just take the lumps and use him since the bench space was being wasted anyway and hope not beating the remaining players into the ground would pay dividends later as players come back.



No way did mngmt. take this attitude of lets let the team flounder and learn lessons. Everyone hoped they could stay afloat until JO and Jax got back, they went to court to get the suspensions reduced, they did everything possible to put us back in contention.

Management went to court? I don't think so.




They even signed DD to try and help salvage something out of this season.

I agree Edwards is a stiff, but who were they supposed to get? With our big guys going down so often they needed to have a big guy for backup. I hope we don't get to the point where he is active again this season but it could happen. Its not like they are paying him big bucks to be on th IL.

You're partially missing my point.




If they were looking to tank this season they would have given up a long time ago. The excuses are there but they haven't taken them. This is frustrating for everyone from the fans to the owners.

Honestly, I think their expectations for this season doesn't match what fans think. Everything from wanting Artest back to playoff expectations. I think it was written off long ago... they just didn't want to tell us.

But then Reggie made his (retirement) announcement and that possibly changed some thinking. Hence, Davis... Maybe a last minute push to get Artest reinstated.

IMHO...

-Bball

Unclebuck
03-08-2005, 02:56 PM
Yes many said last summer that Artest should be traded. OK, if the Pacers had made the Bonzi Wells trade how many of those same people would be b*tching about how bad a trade that was. As Artest leads the Grizzlies to 60 wins.

You know Bob would be the first to point out how bad the trade was and how they should have gotten more

Mourning
03-08-2005, 03:08 PM
Yes many said last summer that Artest should be traded. OK, if the Pacers had made the Bonzi Wells trade how any of those same people would be b*tching about how bad a trade that was. As Artest leads the Grizzlies to 60 wins

Count me in on the group that would have been *****ing about that trade. I aggree with Suave and UB on this. Sure Ron was a risk, but something along the extent of 11/19 was never considered as realistically happenning, yet it did. To blame it all on Ron is idiotic, but to deny his responsability in what happenned also isn't correct. It's not a black-white issue, but more greyish.

I want to see how he returns before I make a final judgement on what to do. IF we deal him for a draft pick ... it better be a F***ing high pick without giving up this years first rounder of our own. IF that happens ... than what do we do? I mean we might have some serious dealing to do to balance the team again. Antonio was traded when the Pacers were high and close to the final thing, well we aren't close to the elite at THIS moment, but that the Pacers management were willing to take the risk of getting a high draft pick (Bender) in exchange for one of our better players might serve as a precedent/"jurisprudence" here in this situation. Personally, I hope that won't be the case, but I would be lying if I would be surprised if it would happen this summer.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Hicks
03-08-2005, 03:09 PM
I totally disagree with the notion that this team's writing is on the wall (when healthy; concerning title hopes). I could go tit for tat, but the truth of the matter is we both see the same things, but we are taking away something very different from what we see. This team, once its pieces are put back in place, is a very good team. Maybe health will hold it down. Maybe Ron will snap again. But beyond those things, I'm actually pretty confident in their ability.

Mourning
03-08-2005, 03:10 PM
I totally disagree with the notion that this team's writing is on the wall (when healthy; concerning title hopes). I could go tit for tat, but the truth of the matter is we both see similar things, but are taking away something very different from what we see. This team, once it's pieces are put back in place, is a very good team. Maybe health will hold it down. Maybe Ron will snap again. But beyond those things, I'm actually pretty confident in their ability.

Aggreed! ;)

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Harmonica
03-08-2005, 03:18 PM
Excellent post, BUT, I gotta take issue with a few things. :shrug: :boxer: Bob said I'm tired of hearing the word patience. It makes me wonder if he's saying what he's been told, not media releases. I'd have to think just by the nature of his job, he has some personal contacts in the organization, maybe even the front office. I wonder if he's tried to shake the trees in search of a story and management has tried to stave him off by telling him "patience."

Also, I don't think I find it "horribly misguided" in Kravitz attempt to write with authority on the thoughts and feelins of management. Once again, I have to think the man has a level of behind the doors contacts/insights.

I'm not a Kravitz apologist, but I think it's funny how often columnists are discounted as isolated idiots on high with no contacts with the source about which they write.

For me, I'm reading between the lines a bit. Kravitz might not neccesarily come out and say some things cause that might burn some bridges for future stories and contacts within the organization.

Yeah, it's an I-told-you-so story, but so what? I think it's also a good story. I AM going to give Kravitz some credit for having a bit more insight than a lot of folks think.

Of course he may have some personal contacts in the organization, but I imagine he's merely going by the stand-pat actions of management, and by a few comments Bird has made to the media to try and salvage what little is left of Ron's trade value, if any. I highly doubt he's heard anything firsthand from Bird or Walsh. He's not exactly well-liked in the front office.



I think some of you might want to re-read what Kravitz said about trading Ron. Indyfan wrote "How does Kravitz know we didn't try to trade him last summer? " Point being, Kravitz didn't say we didn't try, he said they didn't have the guts or the insight to make a deal. Trying to do and doing are to distinctly different things.

We did try to trade him. And the first attempt was made immediately following the ECFs. That shows me they had the insight to try and move him before he became a further detriment to the team. They tried to trade him again shortly thereafter. This time for McGrady. They tried a third time later in the summer by re-contacting the Kings about Peja. That's three attempts. The other teams didn't want to play ball. That's not the fault of management. The only thing you can fault them for was not taking less than equal value for Ron, or trading him for some indian beads. Could they have been more aggressive in trying to move Ron? Probably. Hindsight's a wonderful thing. But did they lack the guts and insight to at least try and move him? No. They knew full well the havoc Ron could wreak upon this team and knew he had to be moved. But being human beings, you can't really fault them for trying to get equal value in return.



Pacer's management knew/knows Ron has had/has serious anger problems and have tried to kind of look the other way because of his skills. Now it's bitten them in the butt and they're trying to wear their Miss America pagent smiles till things blow over.

That's ridiculous. They have constantly tried to work with Ron and have expended a lot of manpower trying to help him deal with his issues. Problem is, Ron's going to do what Ron wants to do. He doesn't listen. At least that was the case before the brawl. I'd like to think he's changed, but I think his problems run too deep to see the complete turnaround that's needed to make him a real asset to this team.

MagicRat
03-08-2005, 03:49 PM
Who is this "they" you keep mentioning? I know you're new, but surely you know that Bird has sole responsibility for basketball operations and Donnie merely kicks his feet up and relaxes at this point?.........:shakehead Newbie.......

Harmonica
03-08-2005, 03:53 PM
Who is this "they" you keep mentioning? I know you're new, but surely you know that Bird has sole responsibility for basketball operations and Donnie merely kicks his feet up and relaxes at this point?.........:shakehead Newbie.......

What are you talking about? He doesn't even go into the office anymore.

Destined4Greatness
03-08-2005, 04:01 PM
Kravitz is an idiot. He makes Barkley look smart.

_PD_
03-08-2005, 04:11 PM
I agree with an awful lot of what's being said here. Some of you have called Kravitz a moron, others think he's smart, some think he's smart if you agree with him, others thinks he's some sort of authority, some don't.

I don't think any of that is really true. The truth, as I see it, is that K will write whatever will spark a debate on an issue. We have two pages of posts here to prove that. I don't know what he knows, if anything, what insider info he has, if any. It's his job to write something that will sell papers, without regard to what he thinks, if anything at all. Writing about controversial issues, whether he says he agrees or disagrees or he says "I think" or "I'm tired of hearing" is just selling newspapers. That's all. It's not a look inside the guy's brain.

I read the guy, but not all the time. Every time that I do, I pretend his boss told him to write this story and take such-and-such a side. His pap is a lot smoother that way and if I come away with an appreciation for an issue, then all the better.

Doug in CO
03-08-2005, 05:05 PM
I digress... but I just read the entire article and the best part of it was non-Pacers related, his last bullet - I laughed my *** off (and cried)

• Bill Polian just saw his shadow. That means six more weeks of not signing a free agent.

Skaut_Ech
03-08-2005, 05:29 PM
That's ridiculous. They have constantly tried to work with Ron and have expended a lot of manpower trying to help him deal with his issues. Problem is, Ron's going to do what Ron wants to do. He doesn't listen. At least that was the case before the brawl. I'd like to think he's changed, but I think his problems run too deep to see the complete turnaround that's needed to make him a real asset to this team.

By look the other way, I mean they didn't ship him out. Yeah, they can offer all the help in the world, but he doesn't have to take it. They could suspend him contingent upon him fullfilling intensive counseling. But theres only one real solution: ship him out, even if you take a bit of a loss. Bottom line, they've essentially tried to look the other way. They haven't taken a hard stance. They've given the equilvalent of telling your kid time out, rather than taking him to the toolshed (ship him out for a couple of low salary, high promise rookies. I always felt the McGrady/Ron, Peja/Ron trades were attempts to keep a win now mentality. I suspect there were a wealth of deals to be made based upon getting some promising, low cost talent languishing on the depth chart somewhere.)

Dr Huxtable
03-08-2005, 05:36 PM
"The team next year will be VERY good. You could tell from the beginning of the year that this team was good enough. I still think they will be that way next year. Yes it is unfortunate that Reggie will retire without a ring, but it isn't the end of the world. We can only move on, and hope that our team can pull through. And we continue to give them all the support we can."

Very well put, Suave.

Doug in CO
03-08-2005, 05:42 PM
No one is making Reggie retire - this is his decision. He would have a place on the roster next year if he wanted it. He has decided to walk away without a ring - so Ron f'd this season up for all of us. It does not mean that Reggie has to collect his toys and go home. Come back - give it another shot. Reggie is NOT a victim here. He is making a choice. Again - the Pacers are not pushing him out the door. Let's not forget that.

DisplacedKnick
03-08-2005, 06:08 PM
I believe that the Pacers are one healthy, well-behaved Ron Artest from being not just a legit championship contender, but also being one of the front-runners.


I agree with this - a healthy, well-behaved Ron Artest is a top-20 player in the NBA.

Unfortunately, that player doesn't exist and IMO there's no more chance of that player coming along than there is of finding a 9-foot player with Michael Jordan's basketball skills.

XXSASSXX31
03-08-2005, 06:30 PM
Reading Bob Kravitz is like reading a Piston writer...I am not going to get into the debate about being pro-pacer or anti-pacer but Kravitz is certainly anti-Pacer and frankly, his rhetoric doesn't belong on the Indystar. You can have a reporter who is critical of the Pacers but Kravitz takes it way out of line...plus the Pacers local paper should be supportive of them which is why Kravitz has been removed as a writer of the Pacers in the 2nd half of this season. We have enough anti-Pacer rhetoric throughout the league, and earlier in the season ESPN used Kravitz as a mouthpiece to bad mouth the Pacers.

Bball
03-08-2005, 06:45 PM
which is why Kravitz has been removed as a writer of the Pacers in the 2nd half of this season.

And you know this -how-?

I mean, you're telling us this in a thread with Kravitz talking about the Pacers in an article hot off the press.

There's nothing wrong with some negativity when it is based in fact. We don't need 'rosey pictures' painted for us by everyone at the Star. The Star shouldn't be a PR wing of and for the Indiana Pacers.


-Bball

XXSASSXX31
03-08-2005, 06:49 PM
And you know this -how-?

I mean, you're telling us this in a thread with Kravitz talking about the Pacers in an article hot off the press.

There's nothing wrong with some negativity when it is based in fact. We don't need 'rosey pictures' painted for us by everyone at the Star. The Star shouldn't be a PR wing of and for the Indiana Pacers.


-Bball

I mean...he does write about the Pacers time to time in his articles but he does not have articles pertinent to just the Pacers and if he does it is very very rare. Mike Wells and Mark Montieth are doing that right now....he does not have the stature and the position he had earlier on in the season and parts of seasons before.

ChicagoJ
03-08-2005, 07:16 PM
You mean columnist?

Its Kravitz' job to write about whatever he damn well feels like writing about. I though he summed up his job description pretty well in the same column we're discussing.

Write about something that gets people to talk.

Looks like he succeeded.

Even if we all take the time to call him an idiot when he's an idiot, he succeeded.

:badger:

XXSASSXX31
03-08-2005, 07:21 PM
All I know is Kravitz used to talk about the Pacers a lot more and write articles pertinent to just the Pacers and not no more....

Suaveness
03-08-2005, 07:51 PM
Now hold on.

Several of us have been predicting *some type of* eruption for a long time. You chose to say

:notlisten

at the time, and that's fine.

But we were right. So don't pretend you weren't warned.

Nobody could've exactly predicted the brawl, just like nobody could've predicted that he'd quit on the team during the first week of the season, and nobody can predict exactly how his meltdowns will manifest themselves. But he will have meltdowns, and they will disrupt the team, just like his meltdown in the ECFs, just like his previous flagrant-foul episodes, just like when Rick benched him for "Conduct Detrimental to Winning", etc.

I have gone out on a limb that the next time he hurls a piece of wieghtlifting equipment across the training room because he's mad at the coach/ management, that it will probably break JO's foot or something.

Really, the things he does are preposterous, but when the pressure is rising, you can predict with a high degree of certainty that Ron will do something disasterous.

You cannot be serious that you thought something of the Detroit brawl magnitude was going to happen? I can understand that you thought something would happen, even I was expecting Ron to break out once in awhile. But I could hardly predict all the events that happened that night. I was in total disbelief. It didnt really sink in until a couple days later.

I know we still cannot predict what Ron will do in the future. But I just don't think that anything like this would happen again. I mean, this was huge, I think Ron woudl have learned something from this. And you have to understand, Ron is now on his last thread. He cannot screw up like this anymore.

XXSASSXX31
03-08-2005, 07:53 PM
You cannot be serious that you thought something of the Detroit brawl magnitude was going to happen? I can understand that you thought something would happen, even I was expecting Ron to break out once in awhile. But I could hardly predict all the events that happened that night. I was in total disbelief. It didnt really sink in until a couple days later.

I know we still cannot predict what Ron will do in the future. But I just don't think that anything like this would happen again. I mean, this was huge, I think Ron woudl have learned something from this. And you have to understand, Ron is now on his last thread. He cannot screw up like this anymore.

We also did not expect Detroit fans to throw cups at our players....the responsibility once again must be distributed and not blamed at Ron because I truly believe a lot of NBA Players would have done the same thing...but we will not start this argument again :)

Harmonica
03-08-2005, 08:04 PM
I know we still cannot predict what Ron will do in the future. But I just don't think that anything like this would happen again. I mean, this was huge, I think Ron woudl have learned something from this. And you have to understand, Ron is now on his last thread. He cannot screw up like this anymore.

I'm curious, how many chances to screw up a team's entire season does a player get? Is one not enough?

XXSASSXX31
03-08-2005, 08:06 PM
I'm curious, how many chances to screw up an entire team's season does a player get? Is one not enough?

Once again, even the Pacer players do not blame Ron for what happened...Tinsley recently had #91 on his shoes...the players blame the Detroit fans for what happened and that is a big part of the reason...they feel the suspensions were obviously over-excessive without a shadow of a doubt.

efx
03-08-2005, 08:07 PM
I think some people are too enamoured with Ron to be able to let him go no matter the transgression. I love the guys talent but it is possible to replace him and not lose whatever chance this young group of guys will have to win the title in the next few years.

Hicks
03-08-2005, 08:11 PM
I think Suaveness is refering to Ron's standing with the NBA, not the Pacers. I think it's pretty clear that as far as the NBA is concerned, whenever Ron comes back, it's his last chance ever. That has to be in the back of Ron's head, and I think it will be when he comes back. He may keep finding ways to screw up, but he has shown a pattern of not repeating the same offense once he's been nailed for it. At this point, he's almost out of things to do to screw things up, and he knows that this time if he finds anything to do, no matter what it is, the NBA might ban him for it. Does this mean he's for sure changed and all will be fine? No. But it might.

XXSASSXX31
03-08-2005, 08:11 PM
I think some people are too enamoured with Ron to be able to let him go no matter the transgression. I love the guys talent but it is possible to replace him and not lose whatever chance this young group of guys will have to win the title in the next few years.


It really is not possible to replace Ron. Ron Artest elevates our team defense from average or worse than average to the top 3 in the league. Ron Artest also was putting up 24/night and he continues to elevate his game every season. I really believe next season when he returns he can be an MVP Candidate....the guy is an unbelievable player making only 5 million dollars a year and he is our key to a championship...he is not replacable.

efx
03-08-2005, 08:14 PM
I agree with you on his abilities but I'm tired of something always going wrong thanks to him. Every time this team seem to be on the cusp he'll do something distracting.

Great players will come and great players will go. I really don't see how this team could not adjust to a different player and still not be great.

SoupIsGood
03-08-2005, 08:14 PM
Jay's comments are interesting. Perhaps this team isn't built for playoff success.

This season, in my opinion, is a lost cause. I really do believe it has gotten to the point where we should be thinking about getting better draft position.

Assuming the following is the lineup next year

Tinsley/Johnson
Jackson/Jones
Artest/JJones
ONeal/Davis
Foster/Harrison

It is very possible that back-up PG and SF could change during the offseason, but during the playoffs those two players will play very little anyway.

First, I'll consider the strengths of the team come playoff time. Without a doubt, it should be one of the better defensive teams in the league, which is very important come playoff time. It features two effective low-post scorers, two of the very best at their respective positions.

This is becoming tedious, as I am am merely stating the obvious, aren't I? Everyone here is fairly familar with the strengths of this team at full strength, I don't feel like repeating what's been said plenty of times already.

Mr. Feisty himself, Jeff Foster, may be the very definition of being built for regular season, not playoff, success. Foster's ability to grab "hustle" rebounds, and use his great quickness to really pressure his man are the two main factors that warrant him playing so much. Even the staunchest Foster supportest admits that he is not near as effective playing against a good, physical post player. This isn't really a problem in the regular season as there are only so many games a year against the Wallaces, Duncans, and Z's of the league. It is almost certain to ever win it all, you eventually have to get past a team featuring these types of players. Foster's inability to play effectively may often prove too much to overcome in order to beat these already great teams in a seven games series. (Spurs, Heat, Pistons, mainly)

David Harrison has all the tools to be a very effective playoff performer. The three question marks, however, are his conditioning, development, and tendency to foul. Eliminating these problems by next year may be a bit too much to ask of David. DH will likely take another season to move into the starting line-up, and another season after that to become starting-quality.

I will save Jermaine and Ron for the finale, it does not seem right to discuss the most important issue here.

Dale Davis, do I even need to address this? He will provide what is asked of him next year, and that is a physical presence off the bench.

Jackson has won a ring in San Antonio, and while that is fine and dandy, I do not believe that should leave him exempt from the discussion. If he were so important to their title run, why did they allow him to walk in the off-season? (Spare me the answers as to why they didn't sign him, I've heard it, the point is, if he were a vital cog, they simply don't let him go) Jackson is an above average to very good defender of Shooting Guard's, thanks to his size, quickness, and long arms. His offense, however could cause us problems. He is not very good once he puts the ball on the floor, and is very turn-over prone. He is also very streaky, but I am not sure if that is such a bad thing.

Jackson also contributes to another flaw in this current team. Quite simply, they shoot far too many three's. When our team is hitting from downtown, they appear unstoppable. But when they are not, it can get quite ugly. The basket shrinks up come playoff time, and great teams should not depend on the threeball like the Pacers do.

Fred Jones, this is another player I don't worry about come playoff-time, outside of his lack of height. He will excell in his 6th man role.

Jamaal Tinsley, what a season it has been for this man. When healthy, whether during the regular season or playoffs, there is no reason to doubt this man's game. Not only does he make everyone around him better, but his shot has improved, and he has proved himself to be quite cluth. All of this is negated, however, come time for his annual late-season physical collapse. Perhaps next season he can overcome this, he has made great strides in term of physical condition lately.

When all is said and done, the majority of the blame has to fall on a team's stars. Jermaine and Ron, at the end of it all, just may not be enough to put us over the top. Both players are very, very good players, but it takes a special type of player to lead a team to a championship. I believe Ron isn't this type of player because he lacks the ability to handle intense pressure, and remain within the team concept. I will stop short here however, in an effort to avoid the "Ron/Anti-Ron" discussion.

In terms of playoff success, I fear Jermaine may eventually draw comparison to that of Webber, or Nowitzki, rather than Duncan, or the other O'Neal. Jermaine is without a doubt one of the very best players in the league, but is not a physical presence. He is a tough defender, but not a great one. He is a good rebounder, but seldom blocks out. He is not the type of player that will be able to will his team to victory late in a playoff game.



So maybe it's true, this team isn't built to win a championship. We aren't a great playoff team, but still a very good one. A good enough team to be considered true contenders by many, just good enough to give us that glimmer of hope. And whether you want to admit it or not, watching sports is not about winning championships. It is about anticipation, being part of the championship hunt, the late season drama and turmoil. I believe it was KStat who said championships just make you hungry for more, it is the excitement and suspense that exudes from a championship-contender that makes great entertainment, not so much the actual winning of titles.

So while this team may not ever win a championship any time soon, it sure won't keep me from believing, and hoping each year. That's why we watch the games anyway, to believe in something worth believing, and to be entertained.


P.S. I love Mars Volta!

XXSASSXX31
03-08-2005, 08:16 PM
I agree with you on his abilities but I'm tired of something always going wrong thanks to him. Every time this team seem to be on the cusp he'll do something distracting.

Great players will come and great players will go. I really don't see how this team could not adjust to a different player and still not be great.

I really don't blame Ron for what happened. I think if SJAX or J.O. or even Harrington had a cup thrown at their face w/alcohol and ice they would have done the same thing. Ron learned his lesson and it was an unfortunate incident no NBA Player had gone through...unfortunately it happened to Ronnie.

I believe Jay said this team wasn't built to win a championship...we would have won it all last season had J.O. and Tinsley had not been injured and this year we had the best chance out of anyone to make the Finals and play S.A. and we matched up very well with them....so I disagree. I am looking very forward in seeing SJAX start at the SG position next season alongside Ron....and Soup, you had a very long post and I will reply to it later in detail (since I am at work) but I believe Ron is a top 10 player and can be a top 5 player next season, and we have two superstars on our team along 2 all-star potential players in Tinsley and Jackson. Who else have players like these? We have a very special team with all our players and this year was our year to win a title and I was never so confident in a Pacers team as I was this year....but we have to wait tell next season and hopefully Reggie will return after the allstar break next season and come off the bench.

One more thing...JAX has always been a streaky player but that's the beauty of his game and his shooting % is pretty good because of that...but I really believe we are a dominant team expecting to make the Finals with all our players rather than years before we were underdogs.

efx
03-08-2005, 08:19 PM
Two things:

I was referring to the many other things he's been involved in.
My argument would still stand even if the brawl had never happened.

And second, how can we know if he learned his lesson or not? It's all speculation at this point and with each incident that he's involved in I'm less likely that he's going to come back a changed man.

If he's with this team next season he has a lot to prove to alot of fans.

XXSASSXX31
03-08-2005, 08:23 PM
Two things:

I was referring to the many other things he's been involved in.
My argument would still stand even if the brawl had never happened.

And second, how can we know if he learned his lesson or not? It's all speculation at this point and with each incident that he's involved in I'm less likely that he's going to come back a changed man.

If he's with this team next season he has a lot to prove to alot of fans.

Well, most of the fans do support him...so i'm not sure what he has to prove...but time will tell if he has learned his lesson or not. He may get an occasional flagrant or technical but nothing will happen to the magititude of the brawl and he will come out a better person because of this...we will see soon enough and I truly believe Ron will surprise all those people who are very critical of Ron.

We have seen this season how bad of a team we are without Ron, so Ron is the risk worth taking even though I do not see it as a risk...because he is our key to a title...he makes the game so much easier for our whole team.

efx
03-08-2005, 08:28 PM
Getting the ship right for this team will mean alot more than just getting Ron back though. The hit this team took after the brawl goes deeper than just losing one player.

Unclebuck
03-08-2005, 08:29 PM
Sorry if someone else mentioned this, but I heard Bob on ESPN 950 this afternoon and he flat said that he has lost all interest in the Pacers organization and he feels sorry for his co-workers who cover the team on a daily basis.

What an idiot

XXSASSXX31
03-08-2005, 08:35 PM
Sorry if someone else mentioned this, but I heard Bob on ESPN 950 this afternoon and he flat said that he does has lost all interest in the Pacers organization and he feels sorry for his co-workers who cover the team on a daily basis.

What an idiot

To VAPACERFAN real quick....the cup was not full...but it was not empty, so the answer is no.

To U.B., this shows what kind of traitor and idiot Bob Kravitz is. He talks so much ***** on the Pacers....he is truly anti-Pacer and should not be working at the Star. He get's on ESPN and continiously bad mouths our team and it is disgusting coming from a local newspaper.

Unclebuck
03-08-2005, 08:49 PM
Before someone says "well Bob is not supposed to be a Pacers fan". Never said he should be in fact he shouldn't be, but for him to say what he did on the raduio IMO hurts his empoyer. If I am interviewed as an employee of the co I work for and say I don't care about one opf my customer's, I would be in big trouble.

You might say my anology does not hold up to scrutiny, but when you think about it the Pacers and the Colts keep Bob employed in this city. if both franchises moved, Bob would be gone

ChicagoJ
03-08-2005, 10:04 PM
You cannot be serious that you thought something of the Detroit brawl magnitude was going to happen? I can understand that you thought something would happen, even I was expecting Ron to break out once in awhile. But I could hardly predict all the events that happened that night. I was in total disbelief. It didnt really sink in until a couple days later.

I know we still cannot predict what Ron will do in the future. But I just don't think that anything like this would happen again. I mean, this was huge, I think Ron woudl have learned something from this. And you have to understand, Ron is now on his last thread. He cannot screw up like this anymore.

Yes, this is what I and others were trying to warn of last summer and before. Just because you didn't want to listen then doesn't mean you weren't warned. He's capable of major disruptions to his team. In actuality, he was probably on his "last thread" when Rick benched him for "conduct detrimental to winning" during the NJ game in December of 2003.

You're right, I couldn't have predicted the exact turn of events, but he was chased out of Chicago for what Rick eventually dubbed "Conduct detrimental to winning" and he's consistently displayed his "conduct detrimental to winning" in a variety of methods [on court with referees, off-court/ lockerroom issues with teammates, coaches and management, on court selfish play, etc.] for the Pacers. I didn't predict he'd attempt to quit on his team, and that still bothers me much more than the player/ fans brawl, but I did predict he'd do something at this order of magnitude to undermine the team's efforts.

There are many ways to dismantle a team, I wonder what Ron's working on next?

Yes, this season has become one big, ugly, painful "I told you so." Believe me, I'm not happy about it.

I'd shut up about the whole thing if some of you would quit turning him into a "martyr". He's not worthy of the adoration some of you give him. Save the martyrdom for someone that' deserves it; not that malignant tumor known more commonly as "Ron Artest".

Suaveness
03-08-2005, 10:11 PM
Yes, this is what I and others were trying to warn of last summer and before. Just because you didn't want to listen then doesn't mean you weren't warned. He's capable of major disruptions to his team. In actuality, he was probably on his "last thread" when Rick benched him for "conduct detrimental to winning" during the NJ game in December of 2003.

You're right, I couldn't have predicted the exact turn of events, but he was chased out of Chicago for what Rick eventually dubbed "Conduct detrimental to winning" and he's consistently displayed his "conduct detrimental to winning" in a variety of methods [on court with referees, off-court/ lockerroom issues with teammates, coaches and management, on court selfish play, etc.] for the Pacers. I didn't predict he'd attempt to quit on his team, and that still bothers me much more than the player/ fans brawl, but I did predict he'd do something at this order of magnitude to undermine the team's efforts.

There are many ways to dismantle a team, I wonder what Ron's working on next?

Yes, this season has become one big, ugly, painful "I told you so." Believe me, I'm not happy about it.

I'd shut up about the whole thing if some of you would quit turning him into a "martyr". He's not worthy of the adoration some of you give him. Save the martyrdom for someone that' deserves it; not that malignant tumor known more commonly as "Ron Artest".

I'm not turning him into a martyr, nor do I think he is to be excused from entire Detroit incident. But I do believe he is vital to this team succeeding, and I don't feel as though we should get rid of him. I don't think he's a "malignant tumor" , and though he has had his problems, I still want him here. Thats all.

Suaveness
03-08-2005, 10:12 PM
On a slightly related note, this is only the third time the word "blathering" has ever been used on this forum.

Now go back to Page 3 to read Jay's lengthy post.

And this makes 4 :devil:

Bball
03-08-2005, 10:27 PM
Sorry if someone else mentioned this, but I heard Bob on ESPN 950 this afternoon and he flat said that he has lost all interest in the Pacers organization and he feels sorry for his co-workers who cover the team on a daily basis.

What an idiot

I'm not sure we should hold being honest against him. Knowing where he stands might help filter his reports/columns.

I suppose he could've simply avoided any comment but the other alternative was to lie. He apparently didn't lie so I'm not sure where there's a problem.... unless he goes on a one man vandetta to run the team out of Indy. Odds are his columns would be more toward getting the team to fix the mess and let the fans see it for what it is rather than sugarcoat a sinking ship while the Star helps the team rearrange the deck chairs.

-Bball

ChicagoJ
03-08-2005, 11:13 PM
Maybe I won't write that thread, I'll just plagarize Soup's post above.

As Randy-the-helpful pineapple would say, that's the jist of what I was going to write, and I don't feel like nit-picking at it tonight.

Harmonica
03-09-2005, 12:53 AM
I really don't blame Ron for what happened. I think if SJAX or J.O. or even Harrington had a cup thrown at their face w/alcohol and ice they would have done the same thing. Ron learned his lesson and it was an unfortunate incident no NBA Player had gone through...unfortunately it happened to Ronnie.

Yes, things just happen to "Ronnie." Over and over again. Somehow I can't imagine what happened to Ron happening to Michael Jordan, Bill Russell, Larry Bird, Tim Duncan, Reggie Miller, etc. You get the idea. These things just happen to "Ronnie" because he's the victim of unfortunate circumstances. Poor, poor Ronnie. I guess it comes down to two different prevailing attitudes here—those who hold Ron accountable for his actions and those who think he's a victim, which to me is reflective of a more pervasive problem throughout society.

Peck
03-09-2005, 06:52 AM
U.B. hit on what my whole problem is with Kravitz.

I think he is a good writer, usually I agree with his opinions. However he only ever does drive by writings on the pacers & that's the way it always has been.

I understand his job, he is supposed to be the contrarion. I get that. I even get the fact that he is supposed to cover mutliple sports in his job. But the man manages to give a weekly (if not more) writing on the Colts. You can't tell me he couldn't write something twice a month on the Pacers?

We have to major league franchises in this town, one minor league team, a massive racing industry & that is it. Why does he only choose to write on the team in the beginning of the season, if there is something controversial & at the end. I know he can't write weekly articles like Montieth did, but come on.

Then to admit in public you are not interested in the subject you are supposed to be covering? That is a huge issue for me. If he would say he was disgusted, upset, perplexed, accepting, etc. etc. I could understand. But not interested? It's his job to be interested.

Give us another collumnist then if that is what he thinks. There is plenty to be interested in.

Suaveness
03-09-2005, 11:52 AM
Exactly. If you want a good, accurate, and possibly positive Pacers report, you shouldn't look at Kravitz for an source. That is, unless, the Pacers are lights out. Then he will of course take the time to say how great the Pacers are. The man just goes with the flow, and could honestly care less about the Pacers. This is why I can't stand him. If I want articles about how bad the Pacers are, I would rather not find it in our own main newspaper. I can go to ESPN or some other newspaper for that.

Suaveness
03-09-2005, 12:09 PM
Oh, absolutely nothing. That was more last year, but nothing this season.

Bball
03-09-2005, 12:33 PM
Maybe I've been watching the wrong season, but what exactly POSITIVE has there been to say about this year?

They got off to a good start....

-Bball

Gyron
03-09-2005, 12:46 PM
Sauveness finally put some clothes on Dennis?

beast23
03-09-2005, 01:28 PM
I think when it comes to Kravitz, you really have to pay attention to what he has written in the past.

It should be very obvious by now that Kravitz passion for basketball ranks somewhere between his passion for checkers and his passion for women's field hockey.

He has about three passions when it comes to sports.
1. Hockey
2. Football
3. His kids involvement in sports.

And considering that his #1 passion is FUBARed big time, I think he takes his crankiness out on whatever else he writes about.

I probably agree with a majority of what Kravitz has to say. But I really can't recall that I've read anything from him that I would consider particularly enlightening or that has changed my position on a topic.

Now the new beat writer, Wells. He may end up being different. He's already shown that he will not function as a mouthpiece for the Pacers. I like that. Someone who will interpret what he sees and attempt to portray that in his reporting. I think that will be a significant improvement over reporting that always attempts to put a positive spin on what is going on with the team.

But Kravitz? I don't particulary feel that he is a student of the game, and it is apparent that he has no passion for the sport. So flip me a quarter and let me speak to someone who would actually give a damn.